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 Championship 2012

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kelf
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:02 am



Well they have fixed the date for the AGM, so I expect Ogie, See the Stars & Whitelass will all be nominated & nominating to sort it out ?????????????????????????????????????

or will you prefer to just moan ??????????????????????
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Ogie
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:50 am

I've been a delegate for my club at a few county board meetings Kelf and have an aversion to being talked down to . And as for seeking nominations, clubmates of mine have been ridiculed for applying for positions in the past and on two occasions at least, one member was the only candidate for a county board job and a manager's job and a way was found to get someone else in. Given the latest shafting of my club - despite us providing our grounds for county and club games for the past couple of years - I could never become involved, not that anyone would want me to be.

Hope you got that ? button fixed.
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kelf
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:27 am

Ogie: Dont understand how a member who is the only candidate for county booard job could be stopped?

and that button just goes on "automatic" !
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SeeTheStars
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:09 am

kelf I have no aversion to working to help my club any way I can, including attending County Board meetings, however when the terms of reference for a position on the County Board Executive might include watching players houses to ascertain whether they are living where they say they are or whether their car is parked there, I don't think I would be qualified enough.
Kind of similar to the stakeout scene on There's Something About Mary. Also kind of creepy
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kelf
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:56 am


Have to agree with you on that "terms of reference"

and I hear Leinster will accept "dummy addresses"

They did for a few who wanted to play with Laois
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SeeTheStars
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:55 pm

Well folks, with the Championship almost done and dusted, all bar the Junior D, were there any surprises. Any exciting new players show up or was it the same old, same old.

One surprise for me was how comprehensively St. Laurences beat Sarsfields in the Intermediate final, reckon the Larries will be a serious Senior Side and should do very well in Leinster.

The case for moving teams such as Monasterevin up a grade or two is very strong, beating a team by double scores in the final does neither team any good.

Suncroft did particularly well considering they did not play in the championship last year-gives hope for Maynooth next year.

Also, given that both finalists move up to the next grade it will be an interesting championship for Athgarvan and Celbridge next year. Reckon Sarsfields will regroup and do well at Senior, there is a lot of good prospects in the under 15/16 age bracket. Kilcock should be ok in the Intermediate grade.

For the record the winners in each grade were...

Senior: Confey, runners up Balyna
Intermediate: St Laurences, runners up Sarsfields
Junior A: Naas, runners up Kilcock
Junior B: Suncroft, runners up Athgarvan
Junior C: Monasterevin, runners up Celbridge
Junior D: Rheban or Kildangan Nurney.
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kelf
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am



Do the Runners Up in Inter & Junior A move up ?

Dont think they did last year so would be surprised if its the case this year.

Was it not just Junior B, C & D ?

The Junior D Final should be a good Derby clash.
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:34 am

Sea the Stars, why were you surprised at the St. Laurence's result? Given their recent recruitment drive, nobody could be expected to compete with them at Intermediate. They will get good games at senior level next year. They should get a decent game in Leinster aswell, once they meet a Dublin club who recruit in similar fashion.

Wasn't at the Monasterevin game but why should they be moved up without winning? This was never the case with Balyna, Naas, Castlemitchell & indeed my own club. They kept winning & eventually found their level. Why would this change now?

The 2 finalists for junior B,C & D are automatically promoted.
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SeeTheStars
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:40 am

My mistake I thought the top two in all grades other than senior moved up.
Just as a matter of interest how many imports featured on the Larries team.
Re. Monasterevin, it was just an idea, they won all their games well, the final by more than double scores. Eventually they will find their own level, however it must be very disheartening for teams to be getting beaten by so much.
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:55 am

I think everybody knows who Laurence's have imported. No knowing who will follow yet either!

I hear what you are saying about Monasterevin but I had the same complaints levelled at my own club for winning matches. Clubs like Naas, Athgarvan & Carbury have all won games by huge margins. Suncroft beat Athgarvan by 10 points plus. Should all these clubs be punished with unfair promotion?

Or should the onus be on other clubs to improve their standards?
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Ogie
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:48 am

I agree with Whitelass that teams should be allowed to find their level. However, the big problem is the overall structure that has a three-team intermediate championship, four or five in senior and then so many down the grades. Such lop-sidedness is discouraging improvement and ambition, and that has been seen over and over, with teams pulling out of championships, getting the desired regrading and then winning a lower grade championship.

Another massive problem is that players in intermediate panels particularly, had very few games. Sarsfields had two. Ballykelly had one and we won't go any further into that. Larries had one although they have Leinster.

Surely there's no-one that thinks this is okay.

What I don't understand is that when there was restructuring done, it wasn't a little bit more equal and fair. Right, you'd have teams in senior that wouldn't be good enough, but it's like Whitelass says, you find your level. But you find your level by the results you produce out on the pitch.

How is it that there are still only three teams in intermediate and four or five at senior, in a county with so many clubs? And there are six championships? Ba-na-nas. Like something Frank Hall would have made up - or for the younger readers, like something Moone Boy would have imagined.
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:12 am

I could t agree more Ogie. Certain clubs prefer to compete at the CB meeting than on the field. Arguing long and hard to achieve the desired result. Then competing at levels below where they should.

It's no wonder the senior setup never achieves anything. 5 senior clubs , 3 intermediate and almost 40 junior? It's that mindset that will prevent this county from ever delivering on the national stage.

Now that the transfers around the county are being 'monitored'. Hopefully it will curtail the carry on of the Laurence's of this world.
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SeeTheStars
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:26 am

Agree that there are not enough clubs in each grade. Why not create the following Championship structure for 2013:

SENIOR: Confey, Balyna, Leixlip, Eadestown, Castlemitchell, St Laurence's, Sarsfields, Ballykelly, Naas, Kilcock,

INTERMEDIATE: Kilcullen, Carbury, Clane, Athgarvan, Moorefield, Suncroft, Na Fianna, Rathangan, Robert Emmetts, Monasterevan

JUNIOR: Athy, Round Towers, Celbridge, Castledermot, Ballymore Eustace, Milltown, Kill, Prosperous, Rheban, Kildangan Nurney

You can do this quite easily by combining the different grades, it would make for a far more interesting championship. You could play for a cup and a shield in each grade, so that both the top half and the bottom half of each grade would be competitive. Clubs would get to measure themselves against each other and instead of having three teams in intermediate you could have a decent number of teams.
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Ogie
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:03 pm

I would probably go with four grades, throwing in a junior B but certainly, it's a no-brainer to me. Ten years ago, there was talk of the top two tiers being bulked up but it never happened.

Some teams will have no chance of winning their grade but that's life, it happens in the GAA and in every sport. You find your level and you try to improve upon that every year to improve that level.

Most importantly, every team would have the same minimum number of games and that's a big problem right now, when you can only offer girls one or two games in the summer. No-brainer indeed.
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SeeTheStars
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:14 pm

Agree Ogie, some teams would not have a hope of winning their championship, however look at the mens championship-how many teams have a realistic hope of winning a given grade
Having a proper competition with a decent number of teams should only improve standards long term.
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kelf
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:32 am

SeeTheStars

and where would u place Maynooth.

Be interesting to hear how they get on at the Sevens on Saturday.

I dont agree with your grading proposals. Take Naas who u would put into Senior: They were beaten by Longford Junior Champs last Sunday, so even Intermediate will be a stretch for them when you consider that 3rd tier in Longford would be below what we think Kildare levels are.

The objective in the 2004 Dev Plan was to get to 8 teams in each of the top 3 grades and when they was achieved to review.Of course a few teams got themselves regaraded, contrary to that plan, which slowed the process, Sarsfields being the most recent.

The 2 Finalists promoted at the lower Junior levels has already wiped out one level and another should vanish shortly.
Including Maynooth & Rathcoffey who also fielded an Adult team recently there could be 4 X 8 ???
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ballyboy
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:12 am

The biggest problem is at intermediate, when the bigger clubs need to regroup they drop down and do it there, any of the recent winners of the Junior A have done the same, the development plan is not working because as whitelass has said club prefer to compete at CB meetings.

With regard to St Laurances if those transfers were in earlier in the year would they be allowed to play in the intermediate ??... if I had a vote, no

If Sarsfields had not be allowed back down who would have won it ??..... Maynooth ??.. Maybe

Would my own club have lost players if there was a chance the could have won it ??.. No

If either of the last two had won it would they have been competitive at senior ??... Doubtful

Kelf, I don't agree with your comparison between Naas and the Longford champions, that is looking at it from a county only perspective, the current system is not working because you still have 3 teams at intermediate, it has never advanced because in my opinion the turn over of players in a lot ladies clubs does not allow for long term plans
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SeeTheStars
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:04 am

Kelf It's only an idea, I reckon anything would be better than not having a decent Senior and Intermediate Championship. Ballyboy are you saying that girls would rather win a Junior C championship (assuming that it's the transfers to Monastervan) than play Intermediate. That does not make any sense.
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ballyboy
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:52 am

STS you meed to broaden your view, while it would not appear to make sense, how do you explain players who won intermediate last year transferring back to win it again this year, as for your reference to the other local club, being in the same parish I am quite sure you know the story
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:00 am

Why is it remotely interesting how Maynooth fair out in a meaningless 7 aside competition kelf?

2004 is almost 9 years ago now man. The senior division has grown from 2 to a massive 6. No doubt there will be regrading again this year. Are you going to tell me that development plan is working?
I remember attending meetings a couple of years ago where the majority if clubs in Kildare agreed to a similar plan as what Sea the Stars suggested. Why was that scrapped?

Your analogy and comparison of Naas & Longford is completely irrelevant. Every county is bound to have different standards. Of course there would be resistance to any such plan in Kildare. But blindsiding and bulldozing is not a problem for this CB (when it suits them). Why can't they be as forceful when it means improving standards?!

Ladies football in Kildare has gone from being in a position of dominance in 2004 - following the AI win - to slipping behind camogie. Sad really...
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SeeTheStars
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:14 am

Strange...I find myself agreeing with whitelass and ogie on this one. Kildare as a county needs to find it's own level against other counties. Like wise for the clubs. To take kelfs example, If Naas, which should be by rights at least an an Intermediate club, given its population, facilities etc, can't compete with an intermediate club in Longford, then Naas needs to up it's game.
OK so settle for four grades instead of three as per kelfs suggestion. It still gives each grade a decent number of games at every level. Better than the current situation where the intermediate grade had three teams.
One thing I would do away with is regarding of clubs/teams. If a player wants to get regraded and play at a lower level well that's up to them. If that's the limit of their ambitions then so be it. Same goes for player who transfers to a lower graded club just to win a medal at that grade-big swing. If that is where their ambitions lie then let them have their Junior D or C medal.
However if a club is good enough to win a Championship at any level then the only way they should drop down is by means of relegation. Any club with any degree of pride should fight tooth and nail to avoid relegation-just like in mens football.
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kelf
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:14 pm

Whitelass

How Maynooth do in the Sevens is relevant as it might indicate if they will field next year

I think they will even if SeeTheStars does not.

I was wrong on one point: The 2004 Plan to have 6 at Senior, Inter etc & then the next Plan (2008 or 2009) was to go to 8.

Did not work as when Clubs applied to regrade the majority of Delegates at County Board gave in too easily. Of course Central Council also had to approve and most regrading was, as has been said, from Senior to Inter ( Grange & Sash).

The idea to move clubs up is spot on, but its tough when a club wins, a big proportion of the team "retire" and leave a younger generation to carry on at the higher level. Taking Naas as the example, most of their team who won Junior C & B are gone so they now have a lot of very young players and it showed in the Leinster club.

Would it help if there was a requirement for any club regrading application to be moved at one County Board meeting but could only be voted on at a subsequent meeting. That might give people in clubs a chance to consider and be ready to say NO. At present the National Ru;es allow regrading and Kildare have to abide by them but a 2 meeting requirement might help????
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nasnari
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:21 am

The argument of a team finding their level is a good one, however the womens game is different to the mens game in the aspect of player turnover, in that ladies football has quite a high turnover of players. Granted in some of the Senior clubs, the panel remains largely the same, provided that those clubs have good juvenile football support structures in place to provide new players as additions to those panels. The problems exists where without such structures, a club having found its level, may well be without their once great players who may well have moved on. Unless there is a conveyor belt of talent coming through a lower level is soon found and its a long road back.

Such structures need to be backed up by a comprehensive fixtures plan at both Juvenile and Adult levels. The current organisation which see Juvenile Football played through the winter beggars belief. Kids should be playing football in the best months of the year throughout spring and summer, and where necessary with smaller sides (13 v 13) in the summer. This can only serve to compliment the county juvenile setups in that their panelists are actively playing football at the times of their respective championships. In terms of adult structures, both league and championship is in need of review. In the league too many fixtures are being crammed into a short space of time. Perhaps we need to go to 7/8 team single round divisions played from March to May, with Semi Finals & Finals in June/July allowing for some of the championship to be played in the free weeks. Make championships 8 teams (2 groups of 4 - top 2 in each groups contest Semis) - any opinions/suggestions on this?

The situation in this year's Intermediate Championship was a sham and belittles the grade in my opinion. Certainly I would hold no value in a championship medal won by playing so few games or from acquisitions. Laurence's held their own in Division 1 league this year without their transfers and I believe they may well have won out the Intermediate grade without them too. Whilst I am on transfers there were plenty of legitimate transfers which were refused as a result of the farce that had preceeded. An organisation that prides itself on being inclusive prevented its stalwarts from playing the sport they loved, whilst others continued to play on misappropriated transfers. Has a plan been put in place to deal with future transfers and can the multiple suspicious transfers which were approved be reversed and those clubs benefitting penalised?

Either which way widespread change is called for. A county which has the potential to have good structures and footballers is on the cusp of disallusioning its members and it needs to be rectified quick. When is the county convention and how does one go about making recommendations?
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kelf
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:52 am



Convention is on Thursday 6th December
(The date was fixed at the August CB and that info was included in the Minutes circulated to the Clubs by email so even the clubs who were not at the meeting know the date).

As for making recommendations: u do that within ur club and then club if it agrees put it to County.

Convention only deals with Rule change proposals and Proposals generally have to be sent by the Club to County Sec 2 weeks in advance

There is generally a Special Meeting in Jan on Fixtures" and its there the club puts its proposals for Competitions/Fixture changes so you have until Jan to bring forward changes to competition structures.
By then the National & Provincial Fixtures are done so available dates are known.

Rather than waiting for that meeting when most people just expect a continuation of previous arrangements ur club could circulate the proposals to all other clubs which might generate support.
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PostSubject: Re: Championship 2012   Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:32 am

Can I ask. Why is it that people can see these issues and discuss them openly with honest practical suggestions as to how they can be addressed. Yet King Arthur and his round table knights won't do anything to sort the shamboliv championships?

My feeling is that they don't really care about club football. They concentrate everything on the county teams & their fixtures. Clubs are practically told when they can use their players a d more or less told when to train.

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