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 Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final

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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:56 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
FK I was at the game and watching very closely. We had 12 and sometimes 13 men in our own 45 when Dublin attacked in the first half. Chalky was back loose in front of the square every time they had it. The problem was not numbers, it was that we failed to check the runners at any stage. A lot of our lads are simply bad defenders, at this level at least.  

Exactly, Ohtoobe.
The plan was there, the players did their best to implement it but the lack of pace, poor tackling technique and slowness in reading the game all contributed to a lack of pressure on the Dublin player in posession.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:59 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
FK I was at the game and watching very closely. We had 12 and sometimes 13 men in our own 45 when Dublin attacked in the first half. Chalky was back loose in front of the square every time they had it. The problem was not numbers, it was that we failed to check the runners at any stage. A lot of our lads are simply bad defenders, at this level at least.  

Agree with this. Plenty of numbers back but nobody getting a hand in on most occasions. Chalky was back but he might as well have been sitting up in the Hogan Stand for the amount of contact he was getting in.
Whilst we were always likely to get beaten the lack of fight and spirit was evident to me. For that the manager must take the blame IMO
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:25 pm

I would agree there was no fight or physicality in the team which is not acceptable either. I won't name the player but at one stage Kilkenny ran down along the Cusack stand with a Kildare player running alongside, at no time did the Kildare player attempt to stop, disrupt, put pressure on or slow the attacking player down. All he did was run along side then watch as Kilkenny kicked his umpteenth point over his head. What's the point in that, the big teams or the ones with a will to win would have bottled him up , put him over the sideline or on his arse.

He was not the only one. It was symptomatic of the day, lethargic and insipid. It's been in the team for a couple of years now. Looks like time for a new crop of players with a bit of fight in them to step up.


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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:27 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
FK I was at the game and watching very closely. We had 12 and sometimes 13 men in our own 45 when Dublin attacked in the first half. Chalky was back loose in front of the square every time they had it. The problem was not numbers, it was that we failed to check the runners at any stage. A lot of our lads are simply bad defenders, at this level at least.  

I think that's a fair point. If you look at Dublin's 3rd goal, Murnaghan leaves Connolly to drop back and cover the full-back line. Connolly is unmarked and gets passed the ball, he shrugs off a couple of poor attempts at a tackle and easily slots the ball past Donnellan. For Dublin's last goal, Brogan gives the pass and his marker (Doyle I think for this goal) stops and doesn't go with him and he has an easy finish. We had the men back but they weren't doing their job.

Our tackling is very poor and has been for years (since Grimley left in my opinion) Either it's overzealous and gives away easy frees (like Fitzpatrick yesterday) or it's weak and we let the man through. It's disappointing that with 2 former inter-county defenders on the management team we haven't been able to improve this aspect of our game. It was a blow losing Lyons so early but I have to agree we are poor in the basics of defending.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:32 pm

smokey wrote:
The expecteded shite from our two anti Ryan's. The win against Laois was the players taking over when Ryan didn't know what to do. Today the players seemingly excused and again the managers fault. Not absolving him think he got his match ups wrong but the dubs are miles ahead of us.
Tbf Ryan pretty much said that, I read it in the Leader. I also don't think were 19 points worse than the Dubs management set us up to be hammered, on one final note thank fuck for two euro pints in Diceys...
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:44 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
FK I was at the game and watching very closely. We had 12 and sometimes 13 men in our own 45 when Dublin attacked in the first half. Chalky was back loose in front of the square every time they had it. The problem was not numbers, it was that we failed to check the runners at any stage. A lot of our lads are simply bad defenders, at this level at least.  

Ohto It's been evident all year and particularly since Jason Ryan got involved that his defensive system is simply not working. You can have 15 men behind the ball if they are not set up or instructed properly it only creates more problems as runners are just let go as lads think its not their man or their zone or both.

We conceded 24 points, that's a score every 3 minutes against the might of Roscommon in the league who were humbled by Sligo only last week who kept them to 13 points.

Down 3-13
Westmeath 0-15
Cavan 0-14
Roscommon 0-24
Galway 3-12

These are not top teams. Down are already out of the championship after being beaten by Wexford.
These are teams we should be competing with.

People can point the finger of blame at the players if they wish. I don't believe we have inferior players to the teams I've listed above. Yet we finished bottom of Divison 2 conceding the most in the process. The stats don't lie.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:57 pm

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that FK. Some posters seem to think we went man-to-man though and that's not true.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:58 pm

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that FK. Some posters seem to think we went man-to-man though and that's not true.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:59 pm

The defensive system is 100% not working FK but to say we didn't/don't get men behind the ball is not true, the problem is when they get behind the ball they don't know what to do, Connoly's first goal yesterday was a prime example of this, he waited on the periphery of the play so he could take the ball on at pace and burst past two or 3 Kildare men who were static, the attempts at a tackle weren't great either! Dublin are probably the most athletic Gaelic Football team of all time so any deficiencies in pace our strength get highlighted big time and some of our fellas just are too slow for this level.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:13 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with you on that FK. Some posters seem to think we went man-to-man though and that's not true.

It is also not true to suggest that we played with a sweeper. We didn't.

And if it was Chalky's role to protect the backline, I'd love to have a converastion with the person who came up with the half baked idea that a midfielder should be a sweeper when we don't have possession and also why chalky was the person picked to do so, for various different reasons he wouldn't be the person I'd pick to sweep or protect the backline.

Chalky was further forward at times than some of our forwards.

Massive questions also have to be asked of our Strength and Conditioning team.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:16 pm

Not looking forward to Tullamore at all now after that challenge Match Yesterday.. Id say the Dubs A versus B Matches have more bite to them.
Someone made the point, rightly so, that our Lads lack belief, whether thats in the Manager, Team mates, or the whole set up, but they never for a minute believed they could Win, and did the Manager ? . NO !!.. In fact if we had played Meath or Westmeath Yesterday, would we have Won ? NO !!

Its time for a new set up, and time to stop being so loyal to certain Players.. FFS there are Fellas on that Panel for Years that still havent made it, and are never going to make it.. Anyway, we will kick the shte out of the Biffos, and Jason and co will be great Lads again.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:47 pm

"We had 20 attacks in their 45 in the second-half and they had 20. And in the first-half, we had more attacks in their 45 than they did in ours." .....JR latest bit of tripe.

I must have been at a different Match.

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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:03 pm

Freddy Krueger wrote:
Ohtoohtobe wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with you on that FK. Some posters seem to think we went man-to-man though and that's not true.

It is also not true to suggest that we played with a sweeper. We didn't.

To me a man standing in front of our full-back line every time the opposition attack is a sweeper.

We changed it second half all right. Did better too.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:05 pm

SeamusMurphy wrote:
"We had 20 attacks in their 45 in the second-half and they had 20. And in the first-half, we had more attacks in their 45 than they did in ours."  .....JR latest bit of tripe.

I must have been at a different Match.


I'd say this is true Seamus. We had a lot of ball. Different universe in what they did with their possession and what we did with ours though.

Mind you I wouldn't think attack was our biggest problem. 0-14 is a half-decent score and with better shot selection/accuracy we could have tacked on 1-6 more.

Am I the only one who thinks Cooper's arm hold on Podge should have been a penalty?
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:18 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
Freddy Krueger wrote:
Ohtoohtobe wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with you on that FK. Some posters seem to think we went man-to-man though and that's not true.

It is also not true to suggest that we played with a sweeper. We didn't.

To me a man standing in front of our full-back line every time the opposition attack is a sweeper.

We changed it second half all right. Did better too.  

But he wasn't. He was forward very often when we turned over in possession.

If you've recorded the match, go have a look at it. I'll post a picture later to show how open we were in our backline.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:20 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:


I'd say this is true Seamus. We had a lot of ball. Different universe in what they did with their possession and what we did with ours though.

Mind you I wouldn't think attack was our biggest problem. 0-14 is a half-decent score and with better shot selection/accuracy we could have tacked on 1-6 more.

Am I the only one who thinks Cooper's arm hold on Podge should have been a penalty?

Should have been a penalty. Agree 100%. It wasn't a tackle or an attempt to tackle.

The level of actual analysis on RTE is shocking. The heralded it as great defending.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:51 pm

Freddy Krueger wrote:
Ohtoohtobe wrote:


I'd say this is true Seamus. We had a lot of ball. Different universe in what they did with their possession and what we did with ours though.

Mind you I wouldn't think attack was our biggest problem. 0-14 is a half-decent score and with better shot selection/accuracy we could have tacked on 1-6 more.

Am I the only one who thinks Cooper's arm hold on Podge should have been a penalty?

Should have been a penalty. Agree 100%. It wasn't a tackle or an attempt to tackle.

The level of actual analysis on RTE is shocking. The heralded it as great defending.

To be honest I thought the same when I saw it, I thought Cooper knocked the ball away as Podge swung the leg for the kick. It was only on the replay on the big screen that I saw the arm being held. And on the analysis - surely RTE can find another role for McHugh. He does my head in.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:55 pm

FK I don't need you to do that. I was sitting near the 21-yard line in the Lower Hogan looking at him. Throughout the first half he was sprinting back to stand there every time they got possession. Maybe that's your point, that he wasn't there for kick-outs or when we were attacking and I'm sure you'll find a still image where we got caught in the first half, or in the second half when we pushed up to chase the game.
I'm not interested in having a back-and-forth for the entire thread debating whether you can call someone playing that role a sweeper or not.

My over-riding point is that if you look at the first half we had a rake of bodies back. Formation was not the problem, attitude/pace/strength/organisation/defensive ability/Dublin's-best-forward-line-ever and a host of other things were.

Looking at the game in a wider context, what disappointed me most was our attitude and body language. I wouldn't go so far as to accuse us of not trying but even in the first eight minutes, before the gate opened, we didn't have the look of a team that believed it could win or at least take part in a meaningful championship match.

Was reading James Horan's piece in The Star and he said that Kildare looked like a team whose goal was to limit the damage to 10 points or so. That we weren't bursting ourselves to be tight, aggressive, to put ourselves in with a chance of winning the game. I agree with him. We didn't even look that annoyed or hurt to be 13 points down at half-time. We looked like what was happening was what we expected to happen and there was an air of inevitability about it all.

Now look we could have gone out and done all those things and I think if we had Dublin would have gone up a gear and won by at least 10-15 anyway. I thought going up that that was the best we could hope for and we didn't achieve it.

The small silver lining is that we don't have the hardest path ever back to Croker. For example, if we beat Offaly we could have the winners of Longford and Clare to beat. Win that and there's a 50 per cent chance we'd be playing Sligo.

Mind you, winning the next three games would give us a 50 per cent chance of an All-Ireland quarter-final against... Dublin.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:57 pm

Any word on Ollie Lyons injury? he seemed to hurt his hand early on breaking the ball away from Brogan but haven't heard any mention of what damage he did
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:02 am

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
FK I don't need you to do that. I was sitting near the 21-yard line in the Lower Hogan looking at him. Throughout the first half he was sprinting back to stand there every time they got possession. Maybe that's your point, that he wasn't there for kick-outs or when we were attacking and I'm sure you'll find a still image where we got caught in the first half, or in the second half when we pushed up to chase the game.
I'm not interested in having a back-and-forth for the entire thread debating whether you can call someone playing that role a sweeper or not.

My over-riding point is that if you look at the first half we had a rake of bodies back. Formation was not the problem, attitude/pace/strength/organisation/defensive ability/Dublin's-best-forward-line-ever and a host of other things were.

Looking at the game in a wider context, what disappointed me most was our attitude and body language. I wouldn't go so far as to accuse us of not trying but even in the first eight minutes, before the gate opened, we didn't have the look of a team that believed it could win or at least take part in a meaningful championship match.

Was reading James Horan's piece in The Star and he said that Kildare looked like a team whose goal was to limit the damage to 10 points or so. That we weren't bursting ourselves to be tight, aggressive, to put ourselves in with a chance of winning the game. I agree with him. We didn't even look that annoyed or hurt to be 13 points down at half-time. We looked like what was happening was what we expected to happen and there was an air of inevitability about it all.

Now look we could have gone out and done all those things and I think if we had Dublin would have gone up a gear and won by at least 10-15 anyway. I thought going up that that was the best we could hope for and we didn't achieve it.

The small silver lining is that we don't have the hardest path ever back to Croker. For example, if we beat Offaly we could have the winners of Longford and Clare to beat. Win that and there's a 50 per cent chance we'd be playing Sligo.

Mind you, winning the next three games would give us a 50 per cent chance of an All-Ireland quarter-final against... Dublin.
-- This I'd love another go at them. I don't think we gave ourselves a fair go at them yesterday. I thought we looked like we expected to be beaten and once we went behind we more or less gave up. I'd love to throw away the fear and have a right rattle at Dublin. - it's the dreaming keeps me going Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:15 am

Why did management take so long to make changes? I know it wouldn't have made a massive difference but the changes were definitely needed. What's the story with Darroch?
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:14 am

Yesterday was an absolute shambles and it could be seen from almost the throw in what was in store for the next 70 minutes. The mixture between the sheer ineptitude of our management team, basic errors by the players and simply the awesomeness of Dublin really led to the calamity that it was. From minute one, From where I was sitting in Cusack upper there was no clear defensive plan. We played the exact same way as we did against Laois in that first half yesterday. Everyone said that the plan we had against Laois was not enough for the Dubs and I fail to understand what Jason Ryan thought before the game because we all said it and it was clear. The man is an absolute spoofer and how he has managed to muster a management career for himself is completely beyond me. Now people can say that we do not have the players to challenge at the top which is correct to a certain extent but I do not think we are any weaker than any team outside the top 6 Ie, Kerry Dublin Mayo Donegal and Cork and Monaghan. In most department we have the players to compete and while I would suggest that our full back line is a huge weak link, it is something that can be for sure worked on with an astute manager with a solid defensive plan. Under Ryan there has not been a single thought out defensive plan and we have looked in sixes and sevens most times throughout the his management time at the back. I would reaffirm the point being made by many that theres some players out there that do not deserve the jersey anymore. Furthermore, why oh why isnt Tommy Moolick or Niall Kelly starting. Yes, they may have not of made much of a difference yesterday but these are the lads we need to build our side around as they are arguably our best players. Without being harsh to some great servants, the likes of Leper and Chalky have been living on past reputations for a while now. The only thing I cannot blame Jason Ryan for is the diabolical shooting of some yesterday. I was watching the lazy analysis last night of the Sunday game where they led to believe viewers that Dublin have improved immensely defensively which I feel is completely in accurate. If Kildare were more clinical yesterday, they would for sure put up a score of 1-16-1-20. Granted, every single team in any match will have wides but some of the chances were guilt edged and the wides were really really poor. The better teams would have punished Dublin. Going forward, it is certainly an area that Dublin will once again be targeted when they come up against a team like Donegal or Kerry who will be a lot sounder defensively and will have the talent in the ranks to punish their lax defending.

Going forward, getting to a quarter final would be the least the fans who travel deserve. We have been on the road for every game this year and a nice home game on the way wouldnt be the worst. I would feel we will beat Offaly by a bit to spare if we do perform somewhat to our ability. Also, what time is this match on? Hoganstand are saying 2 while GAA.ie is saying 3?
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:08 am

MD you are spot on about Dublin defence - they haven't adjusted that much at all. The centre back lies a bit deeper that's all. I do fancy the Dubs for the AI this year, but the defensive vulnerability is still there, and I think at the semi or final stage they could run into a freight train again a la Donegal last year.

Anyway, lads, things could be worse - we could be Meath. O'Dowd's post-match interviews are as bad as Ryan's (to wit: "We're still in transition" after yesterday's game) and they've Tyrone away next. Generally hopeless at underage as well. Not that of any of us are enjoying any of that of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:59 am

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

The small silver lining is that we don't have the hardest path ever back to Croker. For example, if we beat Offaly we could have the winners of Longford and Clare to beat. Win that and there's a 50 per cent chance we'd be playing Sligo.

Mind you, winning the next three games would give us a 50 per cent chance of an All-Ireland quarter-final against... Dublin.

The two qualifiers from 2A play Westmeath and probably Cork. With the winners of those games playing Dublin and probably Kerry.

Sligo play a 2B qualifier (presuming Mayo beat them).

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PostSubject: Re: Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final   Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:12 am

The Times say beaten Munster and Connacht finalists play 3A winners. Wouldn't surprise me if they have it wrong though.
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