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 How Do We Move Forward??

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PostSubject: How Do We Move Forward??   Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:04 am

I think going forward we have reached a point where we could fall into the same scenario as previous counties with successful minor and u-21 teams and we still have a few more titles to win to catch up on Laois. Taking them for example:
LEINSTER MINOR: 1996, 1997, 1998, 2004, 2005, 2007.
ALL IRE. MINOR: 1996, 1997, 2003
LEINSTER U-21 1994, 1998, 2006, 2007
NO ALL IRE. U-21

We have struggled in the last few years and I'm not opening up the old McGeeney argument should he or shouldn't he have been retained but since he's gone the look and set up doesn't have a professional feel to it. Now some might disagree but while McGeeney was in place, the supporters club were strong and fundraising was more successful. The county board have financial issues and this prob. has added to some of demise as the Troika sorry Croke Park are running the books no doubt.
After McGeeney was replaced, the older stronger Supporters Club fell away and now we're sponsoring a player for €250 and a race night or two. Found this from the Indo. 2013
In the last couple of months, Tyrone, Kerry and Dublin have all made major announcements that underline the financial clout that sets them apart.
Tyrone, with the help of their 'Club Tyrone' supporters' wing, opened their astonishing new €8m training base in Garvaghey on September 28, 10 years to the day after they won their first All-Ireland.
Kerry revealed plans for a similarly ambitious dual-base centre of excellence this week that will cost them just shy of €6m – with the backing of €1m from county sponsors Kerry Group.
Dublin's sponsorship deal is even bigger, as they'll benefit to the tune of some €4m over the next five years after agreeing their bumper contract with insurance firm AIG during the week.
These are the counties that have won nine of the last 11 All-Ireland titles, so the roll of honour backs up the theory that the gaps between the haves and have-nots is widening.
Dublin, the GAA's showtime team, are market leaders in terms of attracting a sponsor – and they are also the biggest spenders.
In 2011, Dublin spent close to €2m when they won Sam Maguire and their senior hurlers reached the last four.
Hurling isn't immune, either. When Tipperary halted Kilkenny's 'Drive for Five', they spent a record €1.2m on preparing their county teams that year, and that figure has remained around the €1m mark.
Clare's expenditure jumped by €110,000 last year as they secured an U-21 All-Ireland and, after retaining that title and collecting the Liam MacCarthy Cup, another sizeable leap in outgoings can be expected.
Commercial appeal can help offset the costs of running county teams but some counties are finding it increasingly difficult to attract sponsors. Last year Cork wore a charity's logo as they searched for a successor to telecommunications giant O2. Insurance company Chill eventually signed a three-year sponsorship deal worth an estimated €1m.


This is the harsh reality and despite having some good up and coming teams to continue improving I feel funding and sponsorship is the key. I heard recently the minor lads had to stump up €20-30 for some grub after training and there was an almost all out war with the county board just for some basic gear. I can't see us getting into a stronger financial position in the near future so I'm at a loss as to what the future holds.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:34 am

Interesting post. Its hard to see where we can start turning things around financially at the moment. People are always going to be reluctant to hand over their money to a set up that they don't believe in. Even looking back on a few years ago when things were going much better financially, look at the state of St. Conleth's Park in comparison to other county grounds.

As a supporter I couldn't for the life of me understand why no big Kildare GAA event was held to mark the retirements of John Doyle and Dermot Earley a few years ago. It was a great opportunity not just as a fundraiser but for people to show their support for two legends but then you hear that the supporters club wanted to do something but the county board decided against it and a bucket collection was their only fundraiser for the year.

The whole brand of Kildare GAA must be promoted at a higher level if we are to attract big sponsors.

Take the Kildare GAA Club Draw this year. I know several clubs who really struggled to sell their allocated amount of tickets and were facing a loss because of it. (I don't think the clubs will be as willing to sell these next year after how the 2015 season went). There have been three draws now and three people who won cars and has there been a picture put up of any winner with their new car? Anyone handing the keys over to the new owner? Why not have Emmet Bolton or Eamonn Callaghan or some of the lads there to get photos with the lucky winner and push it in the media to make more of a fuss of it and generate some good PR.

Aside from the population of Dublin or the past success of Kerry, part of the reason these counties do so well when it comes to fundraising is because they are marketed properly. I can't see big companies coming in now at the moment as we won't be getting as much exposure next year with no televised games in Division 3 but if they start from the bottom up and people put their heads together to organise better events and build it back up again for a few years time then Kildare could have the potential to pull in big deals I think.

Its going to take a bit of work and initiative though not just the county board going with their hands out looking for money now when things are this bad.

P.S. If that is true about the minors having to pay for their own meals and struggling so much to get basic gear off them its an absolute disgrace! They'll wonder then in a few years time why some of these young lads will opt for America or turn to another sport. If they're being treated like that at underage level how would they have inspiration going forward to make it onto the senior panel? Its a complete shambles!
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:22 pm

These sort of issues are what make the last half hour against Kerry so galling.
The best thing about the Cork win was the sense (for one week) of optimism, of the county pulling together, getting behind the team, being united.
If we could have got out of Croker with a 6-8 point defeat I don't think that would have been ruined and the split in the county and general apathy would have started to heal, regardless of who the manager was.
That was my consolation early in the second half. It looked like we couldn't really hope to win the game but it also didn't look like we'd be humiliated and getting out with a respectable defeat would have done the players' self-belief no harm for the future either.

All f***ed now and I'd say the apathy will be worse than ever. Tough gig fundraising for the county next year. We could do with the minors going all the way to give everyone a bit of a lift.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:19 pm

I think this money thing is a handy auld excuse for abject failure. Yes, it would be great to have a pile of it and every thing in perfect order: a gleaming new stadium, four course meals after training, new gear for every match, plenty to go around for "mileage" for all involved, etc. But realistically, that's all just icing on the cake. Money can't buy better players, can't buy a better attitude, and won't stop lads from going to the US or Australia.

IMO the way forward is simple enough.

A new manager is essential. The most important attribute IMO is all on the mental side and isn't fancy ideas about training and fitness and having lads training at 6am or in the gym at 10pm.  We need someone who can motivate these lads and who can get some self belief and confidence into them. Some form of attitude adjustment where once a big team goes X number of points ahead of us, everyone doesn't throw in the towel.

Edit: And a bit more emphasis on skills and technique would be nice too. As Tomás Ó Sé said last year on the Sunday Game, Kerry spend a lot of time in training kicking the ball. We can surely find the money to stretch to buying enough footballs and have lads practice kicking them.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:36 pm

I am not going into the debate about managers, new players, etc. but one area of going forward is surely the support of the county which was sadly lacking all year Take Thurdles last week only 3 and a half thousand at the game and of the 4 teams in Croke Park last Sunday I would say we had probably the least support less than Fermanagh (one of the smallest populated counties in Ireland) and less than Kerry (the supporters who dont travel). I Drove through Newbridge last Friday and from Johnstons pub to McDonnells at the other end of the town not one Kildare Flag could be seen outside any of the business premises while only a few weeks ago the town was awash with colour for the Derby with Red and White Budweiser flags all over the place. If you were not a Kildare supporter and lived in Newbridge you would hardly know the county was in an All Ireland semi final. I think we need to win the hearts and minds of the ordinary people of the county as just one of the steps to get the interest of the county teams going again. All of us on here think we are a high profile GAA county but by the apathy shown by the general public of the county and the form of our team it looks like we are an average Div 3 side with the support to match
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:19 pm

Well leaving the off field problems aside, in the short term on the field we need to come up with a strategy that will at least limit the hammerings we get from the top teams.

What we'll be looking at next year will be the O'Byrne cup followed by division 3 of the league where we'll probably do alright, maybe even getting promoted and a league final. Then we'll be in the Leinster championship and depending on the draw we could even get to a leinster semi or final and we'll be right back where we were this year. Facing the Dubs and looking at a 20+ point hiding.

There's little point in going out to try to win the game, we don't have the players to compete with the likes of Kerry, Dublin, Mayo at the moment but at the very least we should be trying to limit the number of goals they get so that we're not losing by embarrassing margins. If that means doing what Westmeath did and play ultra defensive with no chance of winning the game then so be it.

What we did this year was play kind of defensive but not really committing to it, playing a wing back as a sweeper but nobody else picking up his man is not really defensive. It's more Kamikaze.

That all sounds very negative but unfortunately that's the reality at the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:49 pm

You can do a lot with some proper coaching even with the seniors. I watched the Sunday Game panel discussing the Kery match and they surprised me with some good analysis on the differences between the 2 teams.
For a start the Kerry defenders stood in front of the Kildare forwards and so cut of a lot of easy ball in. They trusted themselves to be able to get back to avert any danger if a ball was delivered in behind them. All our defenders played behind their men.
From behind the goal they highlighted the constant movement of the Kerry forwards and the constanst switching of poistions. They then contrasted that with a few clips of Kildare forwards standing still waitnig for the ball to come in.
And finally they showed how comfortable Kerry players were kick passing 40 yards with accuracy. Contrast that with one pass by Peter Kelly to Smith in the 2nd half, ok he is a defender but you would bet your house on Marc O'Se finding Cooper in a similar position.
A lot can be improved with some proper coaching on the basic skills which the likes of Kerry constantly practice.
The minors regularly kick the ball long and with accuracy and have scored some wonderful goals doing this. However the defending in the 2nd half against Cavan was not promising with forwards allowed to win ball to easily. Thats 2 games now that they relied on frantic defending to see out when really they should have won both easily. If they improve on that they could prove a template for the seniors on how to play as well as an inspiration for a battered football county.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:36 pm

Cilldara_2000 wrote:
I think this money thing is a handy auld excuse for abject failure. Yes, it would be great to have a pile of it and every thing in perfect order: a gleaming new stadium, four course meals after training, new gear for every match, plenty to go around for "mileage" for all involved, etc. But realistically, that's all just icing on the cake. Money can't buy better players, can't buy a better attitude, and won't stop lads from going to the US or Australia.

IMO the way forward is simple enough.

A new manager is essential. The most important attribute IMO is all on the mental side and isn't fancy ideas about training and fitness and having lads training at 6am or in the gym at 10pm.  We need someone who can motivate these lads and who can get some self belief and confidence into them. Some form of attitude adjustment where once a big team goes X number of points ahead of us, everyone doesn't throw in the towel.

Edit: And a bit more emphasis on skills and technique would be nice too. As Tomás Ó Sé said last year on the Sunday Game, Kerry spend a lot of time in training kicking the ball. We can surely find the money to stretch to buying enough footballs and have lads practice kicking them.

I agree with you regarding money excuses but part of the failure is down to both the set up and finances. We have gone back to S&C coaches locally doing it to save money, a few race nights and sponsor a player for €250. I was just pointing out the gulf between us and the top counties. Yes we need a better manager but they don't come anymore for the love of the game. Micko loved the game but again he didn't come cheap. He was well bankrolled. I know we can't turn the clock back and recoup what was spent. Going forward the work the development squads have being doing is showing some hope for the future. I don't expect a shiny new stadium or everything all rosy in the garden over night I just feel we are going to be in that second tier of counties for quite a while until we can get to the next level and unfortunately that doesn't come without funding.
Regarding the skill level yes Kerry have an art of kick passing that should be driven home from an early age. Just saw Reeling in the Years 1981 the other evening and they showed Jack O'Shea scoring a goal in the All Ireland final. In the build up there were two exquisite kick passes of 20-25 meters and looking at last Sun. some of the passing was carbon copy stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:29 pm

Mayo: Vision
https://www.crokepark.ie/getmedia/349668a7-b8e5-4dbb-9f2a-84225294d1ef/Mayo-GAA-Strategic-Plan-2011-2016.pdf
Take a look at the amount of people involved in their committee's.

Kerry: Outside their Kerry Group Sponsorship
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kerry-gaa-set-to-rake-in-650000-from-new-york-fundraiser-31256830.html

Fermanagh:
One of the smaller counties
http://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/video-fermanagh-gaa-produce-an-incredible-promo-for-new-fundraising-drive/6572

2004 Kerry 1–20 Mayo 2–9 Croke Park 79,749
2005 Tyrone 1–16 Kerry 2–10 Croke Park 82,112
2006 Kerry 4–15 Mayo 3–5 Croke Park 82,289
2007 Kerry 3–13 Cork 1–9 Croke Park 82,126
2008 Tyrone 1–15 Kerry 0–14 Croke Park 82,204
2009 Kerry 0–16 Cork 1–9 Croke Park 82,246
2010 Cork 0–16 Down 0–15 Croke Park 81,604
2011 Dublin 1–12 Kerry 1–11 Croke Park 82,300
2012 Donegal 2–11 Mayo 0–13 Croke Park 82,269
2013 Dublin 2-12 Mayo 1-14 Croke Park 82,274
2014 Kerry 2-9 Donegal 0-12 Croke Park 82,184

11 yrs of All Ireland Finals
Kerry 8 Finals
Mayo 4 Finals
Cork 3 Finals
Tyrone 2 Finals
Dublin 2 Finals
Donegal 2 Finals
Down 1 Final

Common thread of teams with good financial clout. Put Fermanagh in just showing what they are trying to achieve.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:55 am

Peter Canavan:The politics forced me out of Fermanagh - Donegal got more access to Brewster Park than we did in two years

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/peter-canavan-the-politics-forced-me-out-of-fermanagh-donegal-got-more-access-to-brewster-park-than-we-did-in-two-years-31265557.html

You can turn things around in a short space of time with the right people and everyone pulling together.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:00 am

In a slightly more positive, if not entirely realistic post, imagine if everything went to plan the young team we could be fielding in the near future. Been away so obviously maybe overlooking certain guys/positions and not all of these would be immediately available. But even before this minor group came through and guys came back from States and Australia, the below should have everyone thinking at least we are doing something right in player production. Imagine watching this sort of a team progress under someone like Tony McEntee with some decent names left out and this year's minor team growing and the production line going well. As bad as it is, could be a lot worse...

Donnellan; Lyons, P Kelly, Mescal; Bolton, Cribbin, Doyle; Moolick, Hurley; D Flynn, N Kelly, Feely/Sherry; N Flynn, Brophy, Smith/Hyland.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:39 am

ill bet 3 or 4 will head out to usa or Australia its the economics of it but I would love to see the stat about distance covered per player in Kildare jersery vcork and vkerry it may provide a view into the mindset
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:44 pm

TommyKeegan wrote:
In a slightly more positive, if not entirely realistic post, imagine if everything went to plan the young team we could be fielding in the near future. Been away so obviously maybe overlooking certain guys/positions and not all of these would be immediately available. But even before this minor group came through and guys came back from States and Australia, the below should have everyone thinking at least we are doing something right in player production. Imagine watching this sort of a team progress under someone like Tony McEntee with some decent names left out and this year's minor team growing and the production line going well. As bad as it is, could be a lot worse...

Donnellan; Lyons, P Kelly, Mescal; Bolton, Cribbin, Doyle; Moolick, Hurley; D Flynn, N Kelly, Feely/Sherry; N Flynn, Brophy, Smith/Hyland.

Was thinking something similar but obviously the crucial caveat is that we don't f*** it up.

If we were talking about Kildare 2015 four years ago I would have been fairly excited that we'd be starting to come good after a transition period. Would have expected David Hyland, John Byrne, Kevin Feely, Hurley, Daniel Flynn and Paddy Brophy to be joining Niall Kelly and Paul Cribbin as promising seniors.

Instead we (and in some cases they) f***ed it up royally. We need to get our act together and devote serious time and resources into developing good minors and U21s into good seniors.

People will say you can't stop a lad going to America or Australia or England.

But McGuinness convinced McBrearty to stay.
Dublin with all the talent they produce have lost the sum total of zero players to Aussie Rules, excluding Ciaran Kilkenny's few weeks in the sun, in the same period we had four taken off our hands.

That is not an accident.

As with everything, we have to get off our arses and make things happen rather than cursing our "luck".
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:46 pm

moatesports wrote:
ill bet 3 or 4 will head out to usa or Australia its the economics of it but I would love to see the stat about distance covered per player in Kildare jersery vcork and vkerry it may provide a view into the mindset

Back to money again. Donegal and Tyrone's GPS systems keep their players honest. I take it we can't afford such stuff. A small thing but there are a dozen issues like it and when you add them up, it leaves us at a serious disadvantage.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:05 pm

Ah GPS, video booth analysis and free lunches all get bandied about but money is often overstated in terms of general resources.
We have a training ground equal to most in the country, we have coaches and in clubs there is great work being put in by volunteers. There are some good schools teams too that could be tapped into more.
BUT where cash counts is when you want to get a quality manager and the back room team he wants. If you were a manager Kildare is not a county you would be mad to jump in with...money woes, badly run and serious divisions.
We don't need a review we need some action. No sponsor would want to come near us either until we stop infighting and actually pull together.
Right now we are in a very bad place and there is no point talking about Kerry or Dublin. It's the likes of Monaghan we should look at who can do so much with so little. If our ship was in as good order then our population and money-making potential could lead to real success.
I'm just saying we always look at huge counties and throw the towel in. the bigger question is why smaller counties are doing better than us.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:42 pm

Kildare were definitely using GPS trackers last year anyway. I'm not sure about 2015.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:41 am

Everyone should read Jim mcguiness his article in the times yesterday officials players etc should take a look In the mirror and either give 100 per cent or move on the right people with the proper attitude and who knows
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:04 am

The first thing we have to do is stop feeling sorry for ourselves, let's figure out what we can do rather than what we can't. Plenty of people out there would love to be involved in helping but someone has to go find them and sell the whole project, this would involve some people giving away a little power.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:25 am

kickingking wrote:
Kildare were definitely using GPS trackers last year anyway. I'm not sure about 2015.

Whatever about GPS trackers they could have used a feckin' Sat Nav to get back into position when Kerry raped and pillaged the backline in those 35 minutes from hell on Sunday..
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:39 am

I don't want to but must for the purpose of my point and hark back to that fateful night two years ago, when the County split in two.  County board, clubs, supporters and players all divided along one massive fault line. We have never recoverd in my eyes.  It was such a monumental divide that it derailed us to this day. This divide needs closing.
There are four areas that we need to fix which are in our own han

The manager

Ryan staying around would not be a good idea. He causes to much of a divide and his record is not good enough. That's being blunt. The next man must be some one people will row in behind, give hope to and get a bit of excitement back in the County again.

The Board

The County board need to sort themselves out as well. The chairman should lay down the law and tell them they are either with him pulling in the same direction or they need to resign. It's black or white.

The supporters club

Stop living in the 1970's money won't fall into your hand, you need to get out there and earn it. There has been not presence of Club Kildare this year. Since it was absorbed into the County board (another great idea from Croke Park) it has all but disappeared. Even the simple little things like texts of the team or Tickets have become to hard. Serious work needed here. 

The supporters

The decline in numbers is nearly catastrophic, yes you need to have a decent team but the level in drop off is huge. Hopefully the next manger can get a bit of enthusiasm back as the County is just waiting for lift off again. That is why we come full circle to the manager.

Mr Chairman get the right people around you when making this decision, listen to what is needed and get the best you can. If he is anyway successful the money will come in. Don't settle for second best.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:12 am

I agree with above its time to move on maybe minors will kick start the process and pride in the Jersey
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:08 am

A good few posters on here like to think that going to matches in wind a rain in January defines you as a ''real'' supporter, imo a supporter is someone willing to put their hand in their pocket for no actual return other than benefiting county teams, the selling of this concept was a major failure by Club Kildare.

Our new chairman started the Kildare Club draw, I'll be honest an say that I taught it would not work as the tickets were pricey but in my club they flew out the door and talking to other clubs around they had the same experience, that's a good start.

Next and not so easy to deal with is the bi-polar attitude of the Kildare supporter, we aim to high when we have the makings of a good team and react with hysteria when they fail. Saying all that for my part conceding 7 goals last Sunday was unacceptable
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:39 pm

Couple of interesting bits in Darragh O Se's column yesterday:

"If these Kildare players have anything about them, this will haunt them for years. We’ve all played in games where we’ve got a hosing. We’ve all had a day when nothing went right. But we haven’t all given away seven goals in one half of football.
The worst of it is that if you go back and analyse each goal individually, you’ll find Kerry didn’t have to do anything exceptional for any of them. One was dropped by the Kildare goalkeeper, the next two came from Darran O’Sullivan running down the throat of the defence, for the next, Donnchadh Walsh had time to play a pass off his knees. Gooch scored the fifth one by catching a long ball behind the full-back, Stephen O’Brien was waved in for the sixth and Darran was able to flick in a scrappy one at the end and wheel away laughing."

And a bit further on...

"The Kildare players gave up on Sunday. They didn’t all give up at the same time but enough of them did so at times that mattered for Kerry to be able to run in all those goals. When there are seven goals scored in one half, it says more about the team that conceded them than about the one that scored them.
Those goals weren’t all down to the Kildare defence, no more than the good Kerry defence I was talking about earlier is all down to the fellas with low numbers on their backs. One of the goals started with a Kildare shot that dropped short. Whose fault is that?"

Hard to disagree with any of it.

I don't think any of the players - except one or two older ones whose careers were ending anyway - can walk away from that. You would expect them to come back next year with a serious appetite to put this right "if these Kildare players have anything about them", as O Se puts it. Regardless of who the manager is.
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PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:23 pm

Unfortunately, if this game was a one off you could say that they could come back and make amends, however this is not a one off or even a third off. This kind of capitulation has been happening for three years. Basically any time we play a decent team we get destroyed down the middle.Anyone who has watched the team more than a couple of times can see it.

There is something seriously wrong when a group of players continues to give up when they hit a bad patch. The next man in needs to clear out certain types of players and look for players who may not be as good but have a bit of steel.

There needs to be a change in direction of the team composition, the best players don't always make the best team.
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Join date : 2010-07-04

PostSubject: Re: How Do We Move Forward??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:28 pm

It nearly happened with the minors in Navan on Saturday night, 10 points up and it was hail Mary time when it went into injury time.

Lack of leaders, lack of ruthlessness, lack of passion seems to be a Kildare trait and dare I say it once a player gets a white jersey they don an air of untouchable, wrapped in cotton wool, put on pedestals. You borrow a jersey simple as, let them wear the green jersey until they earned the white.
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