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 Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.

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SeeTheStars
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PostSubject: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:25 am

The fixtures review committee have rolled out proposals to the clubs for Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17. Clubs will be voting on proposal at next Co Board Meeting; Main points in italics as follows;

4 Areas  looked at.
Minors
Reserve leagues Under 21 competitions
Senior Leagues
Calendar

U17s can't play adult in 2017
Minor Spring Leagues
Football Leagues(2016)
All division to consist of 8 Teams Div 1 Div2 Div3 Div4
Top 2 teams to the Final
Start time mid February
Day Sunday / Time 12.00

Hurling Leagues
Div 1 will have 4 teams
3 games and Finals
Div 2 remaining teams
Top 2 to Final next 2 in Shield final
Start first Monday after clock change.
Day Monday / Time  6.30

New Minor Summer League 2016 Hurling and Football

In 2016 no under 17 will be allowed play adult games.
Football (2016)Optional aimed at U17 /U 18
Groups of 4
3 games
Semi  finals top four across groups into cup 2nd teams into shield 3rd team to trophy and 4th team to Medal,
See example next Slide
Cup, Shield Trophy Medal
5 games
Games commence after Leaving cert
Saturday at 6.00pm

Hurling Under 17(2016)
Starts  after the Leaving Cert/ Junior Cert
Completion at the end of July  
Possible day Tuesday 7.00

MINOR FOOTBALL /HURLING Championship

Football (2016)
Championship start mid to end of August  
Final County Final day
Number of teams to decided by grading Committee based on league position,
Top 6 teams to qualify to the knockout stages.
Top 2 to semi next 4 to quarter final
Predetermined  draws i.e. Semi

Hurling (2016)
Championship commence in August
Championship to be run over the months Aug and Sept
Matches played on alternative Thurs in line with the intermediate championship
Final in county Final Day  
5 nights required

New U17 Leagues Football
Start October 2016
Format small groups
Possible Floodlight Competition if pitches are available
All games to be finished in Oct / Nov 2016


Reserve Senior Leagues

Re-name Leagues from current format to
Reserve League 1 (Old Div 3A),
Reserve 2 North,
Reserve 2 South,
Reserve 3 North  
Reserve 3 South
Leagues will start in April
Reserve Leagues 1, 2 north and 2 south  to contain 10 teams.
Reserve league 3 north and 3 south to contain 9 teams.
Reserve leagues 1, 2 north and 2 south to be played on Monday nights.
Reserve leagues 3 north and 3 south to be played on Friday nights.
Divisions 1, 2 north and 2 south 15 a side. Division 3 north and 3 south 13 a side or 15 by agreement.
Clubs name 15 players on their first team as it is at present and 20 players on their second team
Junior Hurling will move to Thursday

Kildare Senior Leagues 2017

Proposal is to  Increase the number of Division from 3 to 4 for 2017
Div 1 (12 Teams)
Div 2 (10 Teams)
Div 3 (10 Teams)
Div 4 (10 teams )

Division 1
12 teams
Each team plays each other once, by which time the teams have all played 11 matches.
Each team will have 6/5 home matches.
Semi-Finals
Top 4 teams will qualify to play in the semi-finals.  1 v 4, 2 v 3. Semi finals venues to be discussed.
Relegation
Teams finishing 11th and last (12th) automatically get relegated to Division 2.

Divisions 2 & 3
The league season is split into two phases.
10 teams
In Phase 1, each team plays each once, by which time the teams have all played 9 matches.
The league then splits into a “top 5” and a “bottom 5” (2A & 2B / 3A & 3B) for Phase 2.
Division 2A & 2B / 3A & 3B
Each team then plays a further 4 matches against the other 4 teams in their section.
Points achieved during the first phase of 9 matches are carried forward to the second phase, but the teams only compete within their own sections during Phase 2.
Each team will have 4/5 home matches in Phase 1.
Final/Promotion/Relegation
After Phase 2
Top 2 teams in Section A will get promoted and play in League Final.
Bottom 2 teams in Section B get relegated.

Division 4
The league season is split into two phases.
Division 4
10 teams
In Phase 1, each team plays each once, by which time the teams have all played 9 matches.
The league then splits into a “top 5” and a “bottom 5” (4A & 4B) for Phase 2.
Division 4A & 4B
Each team then plays a further 4 matches against the other 4 teams in their section.
Points achieved during the first phase of 9 matches are carried forward to the second phase, but the teams only compete within their own sections during Phase 2.
Each team will have 4/5 home matches in Phase 1. Games in Phase 2 will be home or away, opposite to the previous fixture in Phase 1
Final/Promotion
After Phase 2
Top 2 teams in Section A will get promoted and play in League Final.
Top team in Section B shield has winners of Division 4B
No relegation from Division 4B

Kildare Snr Leagues 2016
Method for Transition from 2016 to 2017
To realign the current format to the proposed new format for 2017, it is proposed that the fairest way to do this is to use the final league positions in the coming 2016 league season as the basis for re-assignment.
In order to ensure that the teams competing in Division 2 have incentive for promotion to the new Division 1, it is proposed that a playoff will be held between 1st & 2nd teams in Division 2 and the 11th & 12th teams in Division 1.
In order  for teams to have an incentive competing in Div3 in 2016 for promotion to  the new Div 2 it is proposed that a playoff will be held between 1st & 2nd teams in Division 3 and the 15th & 16th teams in Division 2. Please note that Losers will go to Div 4.
Aldridge Cup, Keogh Cup and Dowling Cups will remain


Advantages of New Format

By making the divisions smaller, the new format will ensure meaningful & competitive matches right throughout the competition from the first to the last game. The concept of being safe or having nothing to play for should no longer be a factor.
This in turn should improve the standard and competitiveness of football in Kildare, firstly in club football and will have a subsequent knock-on effect for county teams.
Whilst reducing the league sizes the reduced number of games for each team has been kept to a minimum. As well as this, there should now be less congestion on the fixture schedule.
Introduction of semi-finals and revised relegation format ensures that all teams will have something to play for until the last league game.
With the introduction of an extra division there is another trophy up for grabs with more teams competing for silverware.
With the introduction of Division 4 and subsequent Division 4A, it provides incentive for first teams not currently competing in Senior Football Leagues to compete and will aid their transition to the leagues.
NOTE: One club has already requested to do so and is included in this proposal.
Leagues will finish at the end of July and different weekends  may be free i.e. Bank Holidays

Under 21 Football 2016
Championship to commence in October where possible.
Grades to take part, A, B, C and D.
8 teams to take part in each grade depending on amount of entries.
Open draw in each grade in a straight knockout competition.
No shield competition


This is copy and paste from a slide pack sent out today. It bears consideration as it means senior leagues becomes very competitive with less meaningless games. If you have strong opinions for or against let your club committee know, they will be voting to either accept/reject the proposals.

Well done to the review committee for being innovative.
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Lily8
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:26 pm

Wouldn't be in favour of the proposal to change the senior leagues, division 2, 3, 4.

You could be in a situation where its better to lose a match in the first phase so you end up in the lower group with teams you feel you could beat than barely making it into the top group with the four best teams who could hammer you.

You're also going to end up playing the same teams twice, rather than 15 different ones.
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Frankel
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:06 pm

I personally think the senior leagues are fine. Its simple you get to play 15 different teams. guarantees plenty of games. some people might say there are some meaningless games near the end with nothing to play for but no matter what system you implement you will end up with this situation at some stage.
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lilysavage
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:04 pm

Think Leagues are fine too as they are. If you want to avoid meaningless games, bring back top 4 semi final playoffs and maybe nottom 4 as well.
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Frankel
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:06 pm

lilysavage wrote:
Think Leagues are fine too as they are. If you want to avoid meaningless games, bring back top 4 semi final playoffs and maybe nottom 4 as well.

This
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micky murphy
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:25 am

Can't see too much wrong with leagues 1-3 at the moment maybe drop the amount of teams to 14 if they want to reduce the amount of games, cant see the reasons or methods behind the Div 2/3/4 as outlined above. 42 clubs playing league football excluding reserve teams in Kildare is a big number of players when you think about it.
Reserve leagues as above looks ok.
Personally would prefer the U'21 competition to be held in Feb/Mar and run alongside the Aldridge/Dowling and Keogh Cups which would help clubs get numbers back to training in January and would integrate the younger players into the adult teams.
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umpireonditch
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:46 am

Wouldnt have access to the county u21 players mick if u21 was played at this time of year!
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:56 am

Is this what CB members spend their time at? If they spent as much time sorting out the county's finances and fixing the state of the county grounds they'd be better off.

Leave the senior leagues alone, there's not a club footballer in the county who wants the number of games reduced. As was said, semi-finals and maybe a bottom four relegation play-off is the only change needed. And stop fixing games on Sunday's when there's no county team in action on the Saturday.

This reeks of people trying to justify their existence at CB level.

End of year league games might look pointless on paper, but they're a great way to prepare for upcoming championship games.

I believe Kildangan are entering the Dowling Cup next year, which is great.


Last edited by Taibi on Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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kelf
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:18 am




if playing Under 21 late in the year its useless in relation to the following year's County Under 21....

So play Under 21 early in the year or play it as Under 20 late in the year,,,,,,,,,
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:05 am

They tried u/20 a number of years ago, somebody on here will have exact year(s) but it was dispensed with very quickly.
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ixus
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:15 am

The people on here saying do jothing, it's grand are talking through their hoop. I gave detailed reasoning in a thread here http://kildaregaa.boardonly.com/t1445-restructure-senior-leagues

I detailed the margins of the beatings going on and why a reduced league would increase competition and standard of player. EDIT: I posted stats of the margins of Div 1&2.

Obviously, there are more thinking this way. It's positive that the board at looking at ways to enhance the standards in the county.


Last edited by ixus on Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:24 am

ixus wrote:

I just looked at the results of Div 1 for the gap. Of the 60 games (6 lower teams versus the other 10), here's the results.

Played 60
Won 7  Drew 4 Lost 49
(And 3 of these wins came in round 1 when the cobwebs are still there)

The margin of defeat:

13 Losses 1-4 points
14 Losses 5-7 points
22 Losses 8+ points

You will find a similar gap between the teams in Div 2. The point is there's too big a gap between teams in a league of 16. Smaller leagues would/should create greater competition throughout a season. I also think it would improve the standard of football. If you moved up from Div 2 or 3, you would be much better prepared to stay in the next division.
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:26 am

ixus wrote:
........
I've also asked, would the standards of football improve and the competitiveness improve. That's the only reason I'm making the proposal.

To counter your suggestion that Div 2 was competitive. I've taken the results of the top 4 teams aginst the other 12 (as they would have moved into a different tier as in the opening post). Here are their results:

Played 48
Won 38
Drew 4
Lost 6

Margins:
9 Wins 1-4 points
8 Wins 5-7 points
21 Wins 8+ points (can only blame Robertstown for 4 of them)

This is broadly similar to the Div 1 results of the bottom 6 against top 10.

In both current Div 1 & 2. The higher ranked team had an 80% win rate, circa 40% by 8 points or more. The lower ranked team had approx a 10% chance of getting a point from the game. Not competitve.

Leaving Div 1 aside. Do you not think the Div 2 & 3 leagues would be ferociously competitive?
I couldn't guess with any accuracy who would be in the top or bottom 2/3 of the proposed Div 2. The Div 3 would be a tough call too.
I'd say we could all have a fairly good stab at who will be involved in the top 2/3 in the present Div 2 for next year.
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:05 pm

I do not see the harm in trying something new.
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:01 am

Will these proposals all be voted on seperately or will they put before delegates as one proposal to restructure all of the comps mentioned?
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PostSubject: Re: Proposed New Format Senior Leagues, U21, Minor and U17.   Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:02 am

ixus wrote:
ixus wrote:

I just looked at the results of Div 1 for the gap. Of the 60 games (6 lower teams versus the other 10), here's the results.

Played 60
Won 7  Drew 4 Lost 49
(And 3 of these wins came in round 1 when the cobwebs are still there)

The margin of defeat:

13 Losses 1-4 points
14 Losses 5-7 points
22 Losses 8+ points

You will find a similar gap between the teams in Div 2. The point is there's too big a gap between teams in a league of 16. Smaller leagues would/should create greater competition throughout a season. I also think it would improve the standard of football. If you moved up from Div 2 or 3, you would be much better prepared to stay in the next division.

That's stark evidence. The problem is, much like many counties not wanting to be out of the running in the first year of a Sam Maguire, this notion of clinging onto Division 1 status is deemed sacrosanct. By all means, fight to be there, because to be at the highest level should always be the target, but it's a different target if it's top eight or top 12 rather than top 16 obviously. It would surely increase competitiveness and is worth trying I would have thought.
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