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 Kildare u21 2016

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Lily8
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:26 am

Just in from Navan. Such hard luck on the lads today. They gave it their all. Ben McCormack, Paschal Connell and Shea Ryan stood out for me.

Hard to understand why we didn't drop an extra man back when we went so far ahead in the first half. Although the backs were doing well man marking you could tell when Dublin started running at them we were under pressure and another man back could have made all the difference. Fair play to Declan Campbell though, he made some great saves.

So close, if only we could have hit that last point in the end of normal time when Sherry had a goal shot. Well done to all the players though. They gave it everything. Would expect to see a few joining the senior panel soon.

Out of interest does anyone know how many of them will be overage for U21 next year?
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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:34 am

Yeah, that thing of dropping back a couple of extra players, I don't know - I can't understand why we wouldn't do it.

Put it this way - if a Jim McGuinness or Mickey Harte team went 9-2 up, you can generally forget about it.

And I know they're two of the greatest ever managers, but when you're competing at the elite end, it's unforgiving. Mayo have been bedevilled by the same problem in recent seasons.

I just want to reiterate on the individual performances - Shea Ryan, Connell, McCormack, Flynn et al. Absolutely heroic warrior stuff.

I still think these boys can be moulded into a serious team at senior level. Hopefully Cian O'Neill can make some head way.

We've been promoted, we've got a favourable Leinster draw and we have a decent minor team again. It's not all doom and gloom.
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umpireonditch
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:39 am

That one will leave a few mental scars.
Cruising in the first half. Set up well. Men behind the ball, Ryan and Connell covering the backs and breaking quick ball up to Flynn and McCormack. Get into a comfortable lead and then deciding to go man for man? Leaving our corner back and full back isolated one on one and all of a sudden a 6 point lead is gone up in smoke!
Connell had a mighty game and put in two of the best tackles you are likely to see but the work he did in the first half saw him out on his feet after 40 minutes of play and he prob could have been subbed at that stage. Some of the subs were strange ones. Lads out on their feet and he brought off Feely, who at least was having a go after coming on, even if it wasn't happening for him, he was having a cut. Haven't seen much of Kelly at club level to suggest he'd be a match winner here and it proved as such. If Sherry wasn't fit to start why bring him on in such a high intensity game?! Didn't exert the influence you would expect!!
For all our success at minor and senior we have not beaten Dublin in a final at minor or 21 since 2004.
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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:49 am

Umpireonditch - I also agree with you on Feely. He had a couple of bad plays but he is the type of player who can produce a big moment. Would have left him on.
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topcat
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:50 am

Very tough result to take, don't think the players could have done much more bar take their goal chances!! The way Kildare employ a high press will always leave the full back line exposed unless the press is forcing turnovers out the field.

I thought Ben was left on for way too long after picking up his injury on around the 20 minute mark, we needed 15 fit players on the field at all times.

I said it before the game and I believe starting McMonagle was a mistake not because he did anything wrong but when we needed impact off the bench with 15/20 minutes to go we hadn't got the quality on the bench to provide it.

In relation to some of the individual performances, I thought Mescal, Con Kav, Neil Flynn and Shea Ryan were excellent while Ben produced an incredible 20 minutes before he picked up his knock.
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Lily8
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:59 am

Personally disagree about Feely. He's a great player but it wasn't happening for him today. He was holding onto the ball too long and ended up getting dispossessed a good few times. I would have substituted him quicker. You could tell Sherry wasn't 100% today either. Would have brought McMonagle back on in extra time. He's one of our best goalscorers. But sure it's easy for us to say sitting in the stands I suppose.
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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:03 am

HauntedGraffiti wrote:
Umpireonditch - I also agree with you on Feely. He had a couple of bad plays but he is the type of player who can produce a big moment. Would have left him on.

Seem to be disagreeing with you a bit today HG and normally we are like-minded. Feely was having a cut but he wanted to do it all on his own and was just running up blind alleys. Presume that's why Murph took him off.
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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:03 am

Topcat, you are dead right about the high press, but it's also the style Dublin teams use. The difference is that always have one or two players standing guard in front of the full back line. Cian O'Sullivan does it brilliantly at senior level and they always has players in that role today.

Overall, I did feel they were better set up than us and it's what edged the game for them.
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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:05 am

Yeah - Crofter, I am not claiming to be the divine authority! Far from it... These are matters of opinion, but look just giving my view.
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Ois
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:20 am

Just back from Navan. Very dissapointed. We just cannot get over the line at minor or u21, no matter how talented the team is. We lost a 09 to 02 lead so cheaply in the flash of an eye. We were run down the middle just like the seniors.

Despite the two goals conceded, I felt we had the classier footballers. Sherry's shot at the end of normal time couldn't have been more than a few inches on the wrong side of the post. We stood up and dominated the second period of extra time into the wind. We could have reeled them in with points at the end but instead tried to walk it into the net. Felt sorry for Rory Feely. I know he made a couple of wrong decisions but he was having a right cut.

However not all doom and gloom. Dublin captain acknowledged the intensity of the game today and we are going toe to toe with them at minor and u21. For me, this team has more talented footballers than the 2013 team. I think the future of Kildare football is bright after today.
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Rex
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:43 am

Very disappointing result. Sherry's chance at the end should have been buried. Those kinds of chances come along once every few years to win an underage title. I'm afraid it's the difference between the best and the rest.

To be honest I could have written the outcome of this game after 20 minutes. The Dublin opening goal was typical of how games between us and them tend to go. We play good football and they hit us with a sucker punch to stay in touch.  Same again in extra time we are playing well and go a point up and they hit another. The Dublin ability to score goals without reply is killing us at minor and U21's never mind senior.

I won't say anything about the players, each one gave it all and I don't believe for one second that Dublin have better players. Sometimes it doesn't go your way.

Best for us in my view were Luke Flynn who covered every blade of grass and did very little wrong, Neill Flyn,. Pascal Connell and Ben McCormack who should be given a go at senior from what I seen today, he was sensational for twenty minutes.

Hard luck to them all.
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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:59 am

If you want a good insight into a team that consistently beat Dublin, I would highly recommend Liam Hayes' book, Out Of Our Skins. He was a midfielder on the great Meath team of the late 80s / early 90s and he said one of the central parts of the game plan was, if they stopped Dublin scoring goals they would nearly always beat them.

I believe it still applies and indeed it's also a theme in Jim McGuinness's book. Before the 2014 semi-final, he drilled it into the Donegal team - if we stop them scoring goals, we will win this.

It takes a lot of work but I believe its a lesson Kildare teams need to learn.
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Rex
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:04 am

Or how about trying to score our own instead of stopping them. In the last two U21's they have scored 5 we have scored 1.
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umpireonditch
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:06 am

Funny thing is we were playing with men behind the ball but once obit went to 8-2 up we abandoned it! Madness!!
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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:19 am

Rex wrote:
Or how about trying to score our own instead of stopping them. In the last two U21's they have scored 5 we have scored 1.

True, but you know what I'm getting at. As a general rule it's very valid.

More broadly, this defensive flakiness is a recurring issue in Kildare teams. One of the disappointing aspects of Cian O'Neill's tenure is that he hasn't sorted it. I hope he can because it prove v costly in the championship.
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SeamusMurphy
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:27 am

Sickening defeat.. I still reckon we were the better team.. we were over reliant on the FF line for scores.
I agree with others, you can't leave your full back isolated one on one.
Bringing healy back on with seconds remaining ?. Baffling.
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Ois
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:44 am


Lads, the two Maynooth lads Maguire and Mescal in the fullback line, are they not highly rated? I thought Mescal was very good but Maguire struggled big time on Con Callaghan who scored 1-7. I had heard great things about Maguire but he was roasted a bit today. Maybe he had an offday or Callaghan was just unmarkeable? We could do with unearthing a quality fullback at senior level.
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rob11
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:01 am

That was really tough to take. I think we were the better team but like many times before Dublin goals killed us. All Dublin teams are now the equivalent of the Kilkenny Hurlers in that they are goal machines.

Con O'Callaghan looks a hell of a footballer. Not that they dont have enough of them already.
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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:37 am

Ois wrote:

Lads, the two Maynooth lads Maguire and Mescal in the fullback line, are they not highly rated? I thought Mescal was very good but Maguire struggled big time on Con Callaghan who scored 1-7. I had heard great things about Maguire but he was roasted a bit today. Maybe he had an offday or Callaghan was just unmarkeable? We could do with unearthing a quality fullback at senior level.

What about Luke Flynn - serious talent based on today and doesn't he play there at club level? We're well served at midfield now.
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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:35 am

Ois I wouldn't agree this team is more talented than 2013. I may be proven wrong but that team produced 9 or 10 senior footballers for the county : Donnellan, Conway, D Flynn, Moolick, Cribbin, Hurley, Brophy, Fogarty, Kelly, Hyland, Dowling. Might have missed one or two more..

Of the current team I think there's a senior future for Ryan, L Flynn, N Flynn, McCormack and maybe for Houlihan, Sherry, McConnell, McGonagle and Mescall. But let's see if they can develop into senior players like the list above did. Time will tell. Hopefully they'll learn something from today but how many times do we say that?
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Ohtoohtobe
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:02 pm

Hard one to take. It's far from a vintage Dublin crop while it looked a very promising Kildare team on paper and yet they find a way to get the most out of themselves and win.
Granted I only listened on radio but people saying we were the better team baffles me. How can the better team be outscored 2-12 to 0-8 over an hour's football? Hype and hope and going in thinking we have the better team does not make us the better team. The game and the scoreboard are all that counts. It is all that decides who is the better team. All the rest is noise.
It reminds me of the loss to Galway in the 2013 AI semi. People still tell me we were the better team. But the biggest part of being the better team is taking your chances. Galway were far better at that than us and were therefore, in my mind, the better team.
I feel sorry for the players, can only imagine how bad it feels. It sounds like there was plenty of heart from our lads, and fair play to them, but I would take heart and determination as a given in a Leinster final against a neighbouring county. Cool heads win close games and to be honest from the radio commentary it sounds like when the chips were down we panicked all roads.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:20 pm

Yet another disappointing outcome. It's difficult to be critical of people who put in hours of commitment to these teams and are clearly passionate but to be truly objective is important if things are to improve for the future. Reading this thread and having watched many games at underage level over last number of years there are a number of areas that need addressed.

1. We have had the same management/coaching structure involved at underage for many years and the type of development of teams and players has been therefore consistent. We have not succeeded in either developing quality defenders or ruthless attackers

2. The mental development has come up short on a number of occasions when it really matters

3. Our tactical decision making in big games is questionable

4. We constantly talk up players who have acheived very little and get them believing that you are better than you really are

It's time for a root and branch review of the underage development system. There are clearly some skill sets missing if the county is to get the best out of our young talent pool.

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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:42 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
Hard one to take. It's far from a vintage Dublin crop while it looked a very promising Kildare team on paper and yet they find a way to get the most out of themselves and win.
Granted I only listened on radio but people saying we were the better team baffles me. How can the better team be outscored 2-12 to 0-8 over an hour's football? Hype and hope and going in thinking we have the better team does not make us the better team. The game and the scoreboard are all that counts. It is all that decides who is the better team. All the rest is noise.
It reminds me of the loss to Galway in the 2013 AI semi. People still tell me we were the better team. But the biggest part of being the better team is taking your chances. Galway were far better at that than us and were therefore, in my mind, the better team.
I feel sorry for the players, can only imagine how bad it feels. It sounds like there was plenty of heart from our lads, and fair play to them, but I would take heart and determination as a given in a Leinster final against a neighbouring county. Cool heads win close games and to be honest from the radio commentary it sounds like when the chips were down we panicked all roads.

It wasn't as bad as Galway in 2013 which was one of the most baffling meltdowns from a talented Kildare team I've seen. yesterday we went toe to toe with Dublin and only for one miss in particular we'd be Leinster Champions today. We played some outstanding football for long periods yesterday. Defensively there were some magnificent performances but unfortunately we were weak in two of the full back positions. While I agree with some of your general thrust let's not forget how much this management team has achieved and how it compares to what went before. No one in 50 years other than Micko has managed to solve the issues you are talking about and unfortunately our new senior manager also does not seem (yet) to be addressing them.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:07 pm

having read all the posts about the match not a mension of the referee which goes to show what a game he had
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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare u21 2016   Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:40 pm

Ref wasn't the reason we lost but he was useless. And seemed to favour the Dubs although it's always hard to take an unbiased view of refs. As an example a Dublin lad crumples in a heap down at the hospital end with Kildare in possession and he stops play. A matter of minutes later a Kildare lad goes down at the other end and he takes a look and allows Dublin to play on. They win a free around the 45 and I think scored from it. There were numerous other occasions where Kildare lads in possession were man-handled to the ground - no free. And a Dub player has a hand laid on him - free. I think even the Dub fans around me were embarrassed by some of the decisions. But it would be walking away from the truth to say he caused our defeat. We had plenty of chances in the last few minutes of normal time to put the Dubs away and I think would have deserved it at that stage. But as they say you get what you deserve and we paid for it in extra time when Dublin played with cooler heads and were more clinical.
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