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 Kildare v Offaly

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steviegenius
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:21 pm

I think these types of games will help Kildare in the long run we are making baby steps last year in Division 2 we lost theses games when it got tight near the end from sloppy play but now in division 3 we are getting away with it and are winning and when you are winning it breeds confidence. As i said its baby steps for this team.
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jim
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:31 pm

HG you say O'Neil is adapting a tactical approach. What are the tactics? Honestly it sounds very good but I certainly didn't see any tactical game plan yesterday.
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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:52 pm

He's trying to play an attacking, foot-pass based game right now. I assume it may adapt to a more defensive approach if we play Dublin, Kerry, Mayo etc. later in the year.

As I say, he's trying to accomplish all this on the back of two disastrous seasons, with a young squad. We're top of the table and in with a good chance of promotion. Personally, I'd give him more than two games before completely dismissing him.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:05 am

So our game plan is attack the opposition and kick the ball as much as possible . Is that what you saying? Who's completely dismissing the manager by the way? I simply asked what the game plan is as I can't see any evidence of one. Maybe there isn't one yet.
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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:11 am

Well Jim, you did say there were no positives from the display yesterday, which is dismissive.

He's utilising an attacking game plan based on swift and accurate use of the ball, which involves frequent kicking. It's similar to what Kerry do when they're setting out to really take a team on.

I can draw you a diagram if you like.
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Ohtoohtobe
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:18 am

Jim the reason for optimism is the amount of promising young footballers we're producing. Hyland, Houlihan, Feely, two Flynns, Moolick, Paul Cribbin, Sherry and Niall Kelly are all under the age of 24. Behind them we have the likes of Chris Healy and Paul Mescal coming. The hope that Paddy Brophy and Sean Hurley will be back at some point in the next couple of years. We have an U21 team that has a puncher's chance of an All-Ireland. Further down the track I was impressed with the likes of Shea Ryan, Conor Hartley, Rory Feely, Ethan O'Donoghue, the two Kellys and Jimmy Hyland last year.

OK, they won't all make it (particularly not all the minors I mentioned) but you say "we have young lads every year". We most certainly do not. Not ones of this calibre, not in this volume, not lads who have won trophies at schools, minor and U21 level. I've been following Kildare football more than 25 years and we have never had this level of underage promise. We have good young footballers coming out of our ears. Wait and see.


Last edited by Ohtoohtobe on Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:19 am

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
Jim the reason for optimism is the amount of promising young footballers we're producing. Hyland, Houlihan, Feely, two Flynns, Paul Cribbin, Sherry and Niall Kelly are all under the age of 24. Behind them we have the likes of Chris Healy and Paul Mescal coming. The hope that Paddy Brophy and Sean Hurley will be back at some point in the next couple of years. We have an U21 team that has a puncher's chance of an All-Ireland. Further down the track I was hugely impressed with the likes of Shea Ryan, Conor Hartley, Rory Feely, Ethan O'Donoghue, the two Kellys and Jimmy Hyland last year.

OK, they won't all make it (particularly the minors I mentioned) but you say "we have young lads every year". We most certainly do not. Not ones of this calibre, not in this volume, not lads who have won trophies at schools, minor and U21 level. I've been following Kildare football more than 25 years and we have never had this level of underage promise. We have good young footballers coming out of our ears. It will take time to make a team and I wouldn't be expecting anything great until the core of what I've mentioned are in their mid-20s. You are expecting too much too soon and failing to see the potential.

Yes - this basically.
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jim
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:09 am

Yes I certainly agree with you otb. But my question remains do we have a game plan? If we don't we don't. All I see is 15 on 15 and let's see how it goes. Maybe I'm wrong. HG says the tactics are attack the opposition and kick the ball as much as possible. Which is the tactics we use with our U/10 and it works OK.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:24 am

Yes, a very nuanced tactical analysis there Jim.

However, I wouldn't hold my breath for an Irish Times column this summer - unless of course you're Jim McGuinness?!
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:27 am

You are very critical of the current game plan - or the non-gameplan as it may be.

Perhaps you could tell us where we're going wrong and what tactical approach we should be taking?

Also you say you agree with Ohtoobe, who advocates "a wait and see" approach. You don't appear especially patient, it has to be said.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:28 am

Getting a bit carried away talking about All Ireland's from the under-21s at this stage !! Let's take it game by game. No doubt that's what they're targeting but we forget other counties have good young players too.

That said I am very positive about Cian O'Neill and how he's started out in the role. The intelligence of the man when he talks is a breath of fresh air compared to.. Well I won't get personal..

When I looked at that team playing yesterday I cast my mind back to the minors of 2010 and under 21s of 2013 - probably the best underage teams I've seen playing for Kildare even if the minors tripped up against Longford. To see so many of those lads form the backbone of the senior team now and still relatively young is hugely encouraging for me. Most of our team are now 23 or younger and I'd much rather see is giving it a lash with a younger group than building a team around the O'Neills and Callaghans this year (though they can do a job as panel members).

In terms of tactics I liked what O'Neill did with the central spine yesterday. Conway is a decent replacement for Doyle at 6 and seems to have strengthened further this year. Feely and Flynn is a powerful midfield unit with Moolick still to come in. And then he pushed Cribbin into no 11 where I thought he did better this week after a poor show v WM and (among others) he linked up well with Feely as if the Athyman had never been away.

Then Kelly was slotted between the two lines making him hard to pick up and he put on a masterclass in the first half.

Defensively I think we've been more tight and had more bite in our tackling. Although the quality of opposition has to be taken into account it was good to see Offaly runners being swallowed up by a swarm of 3 or 4 backs at times and the ball turned over. This was the O'Donoghue, Dalton, Lacey, Ryan school of defending that's served us well in the past. That seems to be the type of defender O'Neill is going for with Hyland in particular a good addition for that. It's about the "thou shall not pass" mentality as well as the individuals though and I saw some of that yesterday. Not perfect (and there's always the Div 3 caveat) but improving.

I agree with Jim to some degree in that we haven't seen any real defensive game plan tactically and I have my doubts you can suddenly just switch that on against Dublin etc. Perhaps we'll evolve the closer we get to securing promotion (if that isn't too presumptuous).

I also think our forward play and shot execution needs a lot of work. We must have kicked 15 wides yesterday and should have put Offaly away by half time. And the inside forward line does not yet convince. Good to see Neil Flynn slot some frees as he was struggling to get his senior career going but he may be a bit raw to be able to include him just for free-taking. Callaghan had a decent second half in particular yesterday winning a lot of fairly dirty ball and creating the goal, but for championship he's not a starter in the full forward line for me.

But definitely more positives than negatives for me. As HG says we are building from a low base whether people accept that or not. That's also why I wouldn't be thinking in terms of under-21 all Ireland's on the 8th February.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:03 am

Re the tactics (which are apparently non-existent) - in the two games to date, we've pressured high up the field, in a manner similar to Kerry, Dublin and Mayo. If you don't force a turnover in the opposition half, you fall back into a defensive formation. It's different to the Donegal / Monaghan / Tyrone style, who immediately retreat inside their own 45 if the opposition are looking to break (if we play Dublin, Kerry etc this year, I would strongly advocate this approach).

For me, playing a blanket defence or a sweeper against Offaly at home is a cop-out. We have the ability to take the game to them and that's what we did. Unfortunately we fell asleep after going 8 up, and that's certainly a big problem we have to work on.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:03 am

One thing I would say – and this touches on what Crofter was saying above, if I was managing Kildare I would be working on a more defensive system for when we take on the bigger teams, which will hopefully start with a Leinster final against Dublin.

I would hope that planning is already underway on this – Westmeath tried to perfect a counter-attacking system inside a fortnight last summer, and unsuprisingly it totally unravelled in the second half (they forgot the attacking side of the equation, much like Mayo did v Dubs last weekend).

If we do get to a Leinster final this year, we should at the very least be looking to be competitive. Yes, beating in them in year one is highly unlikely, but if we can close the gap significantly, it's definitely something to build on.

By the way, I'm not saying the Donegal / Tyrone system is the be all and end all. Jim McGuinness said last summer that counties need to stop copying other teams and start developing their own systems and he's dead right. Hopefully we'll see a bit of innovation from the management this year.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:45 am

HG. I'll repeat and I'm not being critical I'm asking a question. WHAT IS THE GAME PLAN? Now I can't understand why your getting upset about this simple question. Maybe it is a case of let's going and play 15 on 15 and get some confidence so be it.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:48 am

Just read your post Crofter it's an interesting observation.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:59 am

Not getting upset Jim. I have explained it - the problem is that you can't understand it. And given that it's quite rudimentary, that doesn't reflect very well on you I'm afraid...

It's a bit like when the FBI agents are trying to explain the witness protection programme to Homer Simpson!

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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:01 am

Now come on Jim – stop getting upset. WHAT IS YOUR GAME PLAN?!
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:41 am

Haunted it's hard to know if you are just taking the piss or not:

For me, playing a blanket defence or a sweeper against Offaly at home is a cop-out.


Yet your next post:

One thing I would say – and this touches on what Crofter was saying above, if I was managing Kildare I would be working on a more defensive system for when we take on the bigger teams,
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:49 am

Yes - I wouldn't classify Offaly as a bigger team. Next!

Jesus, this thread has developed into me giving some kind of tactical class for beginners.

Somebody else take over!
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 am

Managers work on different systems in training and don't necessarily show their hand after two league games.

Anything else? FFS!

Everyone seems fascinated by my views on tactics - I should start a blog!
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:06 am

To be honest HG I don't give a fucking about your views on tactics. Jason Ryan was run out of town because he was tacticly inept and Cian O Neill was to be in some people's eyes a tactical genius. I point or observation is so far I haven't seen any tactics being used yes we have a few young lads brought into the panel who look like they could make the step up. So it's nothing personal against you HG I hope your right that there's some master game plan being perfect in Hawkfield.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:34 am

jim wrote:
HG. I'll repeat and I'm not being critical I'm asking a question. WHAT IS THE GAME PLAN?

jim wrote:
To be honest HG I don't give a fucking about your views on tactics

Which is it?
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:30 am

HG - I, for one, GREATLY appreciate your lesson on tactics
BUT
a VERY BIG BUT
you need to learn to edit
then you won't have to post so many messages Smile Smile
You can add to posts by editing, rather than having to post again and again and again .....it's a tactical move Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:12 pm

I can't comment on Kildare's gameplan or lack thereof because I haven't seen the games.

But just a general point. Ever since Donegal poxed that All-Ireland in 2012, "gameplan" has become the same as "13 men behind the ball" in people's minds.

I think people see that as the universal solution because Donegal and Monaghan have had success with it. What they don't see is the 15 other counties who ape them and still lose. Cavan spring to mind. They have four Ulster U21 titles in a row and have achieved nothing at senior because they set out not to lose and don't worry enough about scoring themselves. Not only do they lose every big game, but they're depressing to watch.

I think the three best teams, Mayo, Kerry and Dublin strike a good balance between defence and attack. If you watch the first half of our game against Kerry last year we actually had loads of ball but just couldn't breach their defence. But they also posed a huge attacking and counter-attacking threat as shown by the, eh, seven goals they scored.

Seeing as O'Neill has been involved with two of those three counties, I would expect he would like us to evolve into that sort of team.

Obviously we're a million miles off that level. You are not going to turn up at his second game involved in the depths of February and immediately recognise that 'Ah, he has us playing like Kerry. Good gameplan!'

From what he's said, he is not happy with the level of skills or decision-making. You have to improve on those basics because without them, the most sophisticated, well-thought out gameplan in the world won't work. That is what annoys me when people talk about gameplans as if they are the only thing that matters. Well, defending well still matters. Accurate kick-passing still matters. Accurate shooting still matters. I don't care what your plan is, if you're not getting the basics right, you will be beaten by the first decent team you meet.

Just because he might be focusing on such things doesn't mean he shows up with the team written out on the back of a pack of Major and says 'right lads, 15 on 15 today, get stuck in'. Things he is changing or intending to change won't always be obvious to the man in the stands, Jim, especially seeing as this team has been together a matter of weeks and there's obviously a lot of fitness donkey work that has to be done as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Offaly   Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:34 pm

Caprea it was Cian O Neill s tactics I was interested in more so that thoes of HG .
O2B I agree 100% . Game plans are far from the most important thing but one would expect with as someone posted earlier " talented players coming out of our ears" that the basic skills would be a given . Or is that too simplistic?  I think what separates the good player from the great players is to be able to do the right thing under pressure.
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