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 kildare v Wexford

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Rex
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Sun May 22, 2016 11:42 pm

I had no issues with the tactics, it was the timing I can't figure out. The time to try it was against Clare. There was little to play for and we had Croke Park at our disposal.

But now he has decided to do it he must stay the course.
To play it you need speed. Our two midfielders wouldn't be blessed with pace especially Moolick. It might be time if we are going to continue with 8 defenders to use an unorthodox middle two who have pace but lack the aerial ability. If teams go long then just crowd the middle and filter back.
I'm trying to think who we could put in there, if Flynn and Kelly are back then Cribben would be one and possibly Paudie. In front of them Kelly, the two Flynn's and Smith/Eoghan.

So we would have something like.

         Donnellan
Kelly Hyland Lyons
          Morgan
Bolton Conway Doyle
     Cribben ONeill
Houlihan Kelly Flats/Smith
         Flynn Flynn
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tomoneillandhissisteranne
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Sun May 22, 2016 11:48 pm

flourman wrote:
A lot of discussion around tactics and systems going on which I guess is fair enough, but surely player attitude has to be questioned here as well.
Far too many players sauntering around Croke Park last night, which left players in possession with little or no options. Very few players busting a gut to support the play - there was acres of space in front and to the sides of the player in possession with exception of a few nobody was willing to attack the space at pace and give players options - it all looked lazy and pedestrian - with the inevitable result of endless side and backward passes.
You'd have seen more forward passes at a rugby game - deeply depressing stuff.

Have to agree with Flourman on this.
The positive is a tighter defence but the negative - and hopefully returning players will ease this against Offaly/Westmeath - was our inability to get forward at pace and draw fouls or get scores. On which point - no more than Wexford, we missed some sitters last night.


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smokey
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 12:02 am

It looked to me just a compilation of tactics carried out by other teams.
Two people in front of full back line. Donegal
Push up on kick outs. Kerry
Short kick outs. Dublin

To me it was utter shite, looking at Bolton and Morgan sprinting back as soon as Wexford kicked out was brutal.
Donnellans kick outs were good but I wish he went for a few more like to the one to Morgan in second half. I don't think P Kelly is tidy enough to be carrying the ball he will get turned over at some stage.
I couldn't believe the substitution of o Niell went ahead when Feely was down it was obvious he wasn't going to continue
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Xavi
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 12:56 am

Our transition from defense to attack is what really let us down but it's something that can be worked on over the coming months and years.

O Neill and the Kildare players could do worse than look and analyse Tyrone in the opening half against Derry and how they break at pace. Passing backwards is a last option for them not a means of retaining possession. Everything is go forward ball with willing runners everywhere.

Westmeath and Offaly will both know the weaknesses we possess. In fact the country does. It's plain for all to see.
Perform like we did against Wex and we'll be turned over
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ixus
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 3:05 am

Watching Cork try and play defense v Tipp. Same problems with transition and not knowing what to do. And they haven't changed despite being down by ten points.

It really is terrible for a spectator. Takes the atmosphere out of the game. I wouldn't mind but Cork have a lethal full forward line when they get going.
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flourman
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 4:10 am

Mickey Harte - "can't play the transition game from back to front if you don't have pace"
.. and there lies our problem in a nutshell - not enough pace, not enough stamina
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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 7:19 am

Rex wrote:
I had no issues with the tactics, it was the timing I can't figure out. The time to try it was against Clare. There was little to play for and we had Croke Park at our disposal.

But now he has decided to do it he must stay the course.
To play it you need speed. Our two midfielders wouldn't be blessed with pace especially Moolick. It might be time if we are going to continue with 8 defenders to use an unorthodox middle two who have pace but lack the aerial ability. If teams go long then just crowd the middle and filter back.
I'm trying to think who we could put in there, if Flynn and Kelly are back then Cribben would be one and possibly Paudie. In front of them Kelly, the two Flynn's and Smith/Eoghan.

So we would have something like.

         Donnellan
Kelly Hyland Lyons
          Morgan
Bolton Conway Doyle
     Cribben ONeill
Houlihan Kelly Flats/Smith
         Flynn Flynn

Broadly agree with the direction there Rex but you talk about pace in the middle and then put O'Neill there?? At least though you are putting something forward.  For years people have been criticising our set-up / naivety / defending and when we try to do something suddenly we're only copying Dublin, Donegal and Kerry.  Who happen to be the last 3 teams to win the All Ireland. Give me strength.
But yes.. pace is the big missing ingredient, and mobility/energy.  Paudie had the energy and mobility in his locker but I'm not sure he still does.  Doyle has it, Hyland, Lyons. Cribbin when on form has it.  His brother if he were fit might be another option in this set-up as would their clubmate McNally.  Dan Flynn obviously another.   Niall Kelly is no slouch either though he's more about guile and generally doing the right thing on the ball.  I'd go with the following 15 if all fit

        Donnellan
Kelly     Hyland     Houlihan
     Morgan     Doyle
Lyons  Conway  K Cribbin
          P Cribbin   Moolick
       McNally    N Kelly
       Dan Flynn  N Flynn

All those in bold have serious pace.

Ask me again in 5 weeks though and I'll have made about 5 changes as we have so many similar players.
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flourman
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 7:42 am

That line-up don't look half bad Crofter .. I'd rather D Flynn running onto the ball, off a shoulder from deeper. Plenty of pace in there, but I think stamina is the bigger issue - I don't believe our pacey men have the stamina to run at pace over a sustained period. Making intelligent runs is a must to conserve energy and players need to know where the runners are going to be - for instance Bolton burst a gut with a few runs on Saturday night up the wing and never seen the ball once
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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 7:59 am

I agree on Dan Flynn and if we had a target man of any consequence available I'd have him around the middle, but needs must.
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Rex
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 10:18 am

If it's pace you need then Moolick won't cut it. Plus he doesn't have the stamina to last. Paudie wouldn't be a out and out speed merchant but he is no slouch. He also would last longer than Moolick. But I agree he is not the ideal choice. 
What's Johnny Byrne like pace wise. He has done well anytime I've seen him. Maybe swap him and Moolick. 

Whoever is in needs to be like the Duracell bunny. Cian is going to have find a solution.
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Ohtoohtobe
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 11:39 am

I have no problem with us getting men back but I think we have the balance of personnel wrong.
If you look at teams that defend and counter well, none of them start with eight out-and-out defenders in their 15. It's more lads who were natural attackers growing up who now also get back and defend superbly.
I'm thinking of the likes of Paul Flynn for Dublin or Mattie Donnelly for Tyrone or Mark McHugh when Donegal were at their peak. They are key defensively but also pose a huge threat going forward. You wouldn't see these teams picking two extra natural half-backs on top of the starting six defenders.
Whether we have anyone who can grow into that sort of role is another matter. I would have been hoping that we could have a formation where players such as Dan Flynn and Paul Cribbin start as wing forwards, are a big part of the defence when we don't have the ball, and pose a big threat going forward when we do have it. Do they have the work-rate to play that way? The jury is still out.
But I think if we take on Dublin with a similar line-up we might concede slightly less than we did last year but we'll struggle to score more than four or five points. I personally don't think losing, say, 2-15 to 0-6 is any less embarrassing than last year's 5-18 to 0-14, even though it's a smaller margin.
If anything, it would be more embarrassing, because we'd be like Westmeath last year - not even trying to win the game.
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SeamusMurphy
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 11:48 am

Have a look at the sfl results tonight. . Defensive systems to the extreme.
I'm concerned about the current manager, when has he been the boss ?. Harsh I know.
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ixus
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 8:16 pm

Ah Seamus, give it a rest. Course Director of PE in UL and now Head of Sports in CIT. Coached teams to six All Ireland finals in the last eight years, winning two, in hurling and football.

There isn't another manager around that has had that pedigree  before taking the plunge into Senior management. It doesn't guarantee anything of course but it is more than sufficient to be selected as manager of Kildare.

There are huge gaps between the top tier in football and hurling as evidence shows this week alone. It is not just Kildare's malaise.
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micky murphy
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 8:47 pm

Guys lets be straight here Saturday night was a Div 3 team barely scraping over a Div 4 team -end of. In Kildare we have laughed at games like this in the past between the likes of Offaly / Carlow / Louth / Wicklow etc. but that's where we are now and there are many people in denial of it.
I have to agree with Seamus I have said previously I am worried about the 'cliches' coming out of the managers mouth and this seems to have filtered to the players, rather than the tit-bits we are getting I would much prefer to hear 'commitment to the tackle' / 'turnover of possession' / 'raw intensity' / 'bravery' / 'currently not good enough' / 'we tackled like animals today' / 'we put our bodies on the lines for the cause' - can anyone tell me that any of the above are true of Kildare at the moment????
'if it weren't for bad luck we would haven no luck' according to Cian after Sat's game and other games to me the best managers come out with 'you make your own luck'....
I was delighted to see him getting the job but looks like there is a massive jump between being the coach who is usually closer to the players and the manager who has to make the hard decisions?? I think he will figure it out and turn it around as he is a smart guy just hope its sooner than later.
Lets get real people on here talking about formations etc. 1st thing to get right is the basics of championship football being commitment, intensity and putting your body on the line, again I will say every game Johnny Doyle played for Kildare he gave 120% min body and soul and could have been scraped off the field after games, the other day most guys were fresh coming off the field??
Something wrong with attitude and guys believing they are something.... if you are trying to play the type of game we reverted to the other day you just can't turn it on and lot of lads just taught we are going defensive so we have cover and they could turn off which doesn't work if you are going to play that way everyone needs to be giving it 125% for the full 70mins like Dublin do and Dublin in my opinion are one of the most defensive teams set up they just play with such a high level of intensity they get away with it.
I personally was very disappointed coming out of Croke Park Sat night with basic attitude .... however I also remember bad days in recent years with Louth and Wicklow ...
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 9:06 pm

I don't often post on here but after looking at the game there is an awful lot the manager can not be blamed for. I'm involved in underage coaching and we have a plan for kids right the way up so once the reach U14 you know they have the basics, picking up the ball, catching, hand pass, solo, tackling just some of them.

Unfortunately these are the things that many of our senior team are unable to do. The amount of stupid errors and basic skills missing is crazy. We are also missing a leader on the pitch to give someone a bollocking when they f**kup, this doesn't just need to happen in a game but on the training pitch too. Players need to cop on and take some responsibility, managers have being getting the blame for long enough at this stage.
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 9:44 pm

Sorry also meant to throw this out there... a wise man once said to me that you will pick up injuries quicker if you are not fully committed to the tackle and only half going in ... we have a lot of such injuries at the moment!
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 9:54 pm

Cassanata wrote:
I don't often post on here but after looking at the game there is an awful lot the manager can not be blamed for. I'm involved in underage coaching and we have a plan for kids right the way up so once the reach U14 you know they have the basics, picking up the ball, catching, hand pass, solo, tackling just some of them.

Unfortunately these are the things that many of our senior team are unable to do. The amount of stupid errors and basic skills missing is crazy. We are also missing a leader on the pitch to give someone a bollocking when they f**kup, this doesn't just need to happen in a game but on the training pitch too. Players need to cop on and take some responsibility, managers have being getting the blame for long enough at this stage.

+1

Can anyone honestly think of a team of experienced players, who have played at a high level, who make so many ridiculously stupid errors. We just NEVER seem to learn from our own mistakes.
Lads around me shouting O'Neill hasn't a clue after one of the lads played a skittery ball along the ground directly to a Wexford man when there was actually a better option just outside him...

Is it time we were as harsh on the players as we are on managers?!
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 10:12 pm

Flamingo wrote:


Is it time we were as harsh on the players as we are on managers?!

One of the things in the manager's control is the ability to be harsh on his players. If you can't make a simple hand pass during a championship game then don't expect to be playing the next one. Doesn't matter if your the captain or making your debut you need to do the basics right. I hope to god O'Neill wasn't saying ahh lads don't worry it was our first game and we'll be better the next day. It should be a case of ye were crap and if ye make just one simple mistake in training over the next few weeks it will be the juniors ye will be playing with.
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Mon May 23, 2016 11:45 pm

Maybe I'm being a wee bit harsh on cian ixus, but like others, it's so fckn frustrating.. yes the players attitude isn't good, and there's a definitive lack of sweat and fight from them.. but the management pick the team, decide what player's are playing where, and also dictate the tactics.
I still can't get my head around why we set up so defensive v wexford, I can understand doing so against the dubs etc, but not against a team who failed to get out of div 4.
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Tue May 24, 2016 2:17 am

But Seamus that's the thing. We all understand if it was done against Dublin but dont want it when playing Wexford! If you agree that it is a good idea for Dublin they when do you think we should practice it? If we get to face Dublin in a final, big if, then I for one would like to see us practice the system beforehand. Would not have liked to think what would have happened if it was Dublin on Saturday night.
I for one am glad Cian done something different. Agree with some here that he should probably have done it earlier but at least he done it now. That is not saying I am happy with the way the plan was executed but would hope that the manager or players are not either.

On some of the comments above I think if Kevin is injured for the next game moving Cribbin to midfield will help him no end. I am not sure I have seen him play well when not in midfield and as he showed last year when he does play well there he is a huge player for us. Add Kelly and Flynn to the mix I am confident we can improve on our last display significantly.
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Tue May 24, 2016 2:53 am

Training and A v B Matches and challenge matches is surely where most of the planning should happen, we adapted a new style against a div 4 team, and let's be honest, were lucky to get a win.
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Tue May 24, 2016 4:11 am

I was scoffed at when I suggested I was worried we drew with laois in a challenge a few weeks back. laois are a team going no where with players waiting to losee so they can head to states .after beating wicklow they drank like they'd won leinster.

at the moment our lads simply are not good enough. we are better than wexford but the reason it was so close was they had much more hunger and desire. not a first time hunger and desire was questioned of this bunch .

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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

I hope WM win, I'd be worried playing the biffs, they never feared playing us when we had good team's, and they would most definitely be up for it.
I know that's a terrible statement to make.
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Tue May 24, 2016 6:11 am

Agree Offaly on a roll (which they would be if they secure a second win) is not something I'd be too keen to face. Which is a really indictment of how we've fallen. To be fair if we can't beat either Offaly or WM though we're better off not being in a L Final v the Dubs (if you get my logic).

As regards the comment that training matches are where we should have tried out the defensive tactics I disagree completely - training matches are nothing like the real thing unless you're Kilkenny / Dublin.
You need to try it against real opposition.
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PostSubject: Re: kildare v Wexford    Tue May 24, 2016 6:28 am

ixus wrote:
Ah Seamus, give it a rest. Course Director of PE in UL and now Head of Sports in CIT. Coached teams to six All Ireland finals in the last eight years, winning two, in hurling and football.

There isn't another manager around that has had that pedigree  before taking the plunge into Senior management. It doesn't guarantee anything of course but it is more than sufficient to be selected as manager of Kildare.

There are huge gaps between the top tier in football and hurling as evidence shows this week alone. It is not just Kildare's malaise.

Think your mixing up coach, manager & leader and trying to make out they're the same thing, they're not e.g Mick Dempsey
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