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 Mayo V Kildare

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HauntedGraffiti
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:59 am

Incidentally - Rex, agree Fitzpatrick was generally good v Offaly but my god he was absolutely done for the second goal. Again, this is part of the defensive frailty I'm talking about.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:28 am

So how would you set up for this game? I'd like to hear people's advised approach before the game, rather than with the benefit of hindsight. Easy to take O'Neill apart the next day if it all goes wrong - but what would you do in his shoes?

Personally I'd go with a reasonably attacking set-up. I know it's very risky but if we go with the blanket we remove any chance whatsoever of winning the game, because we're just so bad at it. I think we may as well have a crack, could get ugly if Mayo push up on us, but I'd hope they stick with the conservative approach and that we might be able to go for it and catch fire like we did against Cork last year.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:13 am

Ohtoo - it's a fair question.

Short answer is that I would have taken a different approach to managing Kildare if I was Cian! I was absolutely insistent we should have used a sweeper during the league and nailed down that system for championship.

Come the Wexford game - not only have we one sweeper, we have two, and additional cover dropping back for good measure. As we know, we kept the score down but the transition to attack was diabolical, particularly in the second half. Against Westmeath, it was equally as dreadful and we went nearly a full half-hour without scoring at one stage.

Against Offaly, we went for something between the two and used only one sweeper. It worked far better for us but we are kidding ourselves if we think we've mastered that style. If you want to see a team who are truly outstanding at using the one-sweeper system - look at Dublin. Cian O'Sullivan is an absolute general in that role. Also our full-backs are not as good at man-marking as Philly McMahon and Johnny Cooper.

I thought there were times when we still looked unsure of ourselves and very under-rehearsed v Offaly, and of course for the two goals the whole thing fell apart. My fear is that Mayo will equal that and bang in a few more for good measure.

However, you are right - if we go defensive, we may keep the score down but we are so abysmal at that style we will not win. As such, I think O'Neill has no option but to maintain a similar approach to the Offaly game and take his chances. I have no doubt that when Mayo see we're playing with only sweeper, they will sense we're vulnerable and go for the jugular. That's why I think this could get ugly - I am worried we're no better defensively than last year.

To reiterate, I hope I'm as wrong as I was last week.
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Ohtoohtobe
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:22 pm

I don't think we are any better defensively and I think a lot of the time it comes down to simple bad defending more than how many men we have back. Therefore we may as well go at Mayo, because we're liable to concede scores either way.

I think our best hope is that Rochford chickens out and keeps playing the defensive system that isn't working for them, with Kevin McLoughlin looking totally lost. Because if they go back to playing the way they used to, pressing up high, then we're in trouble, because they would make the short kick out risky but we're not likely to have much joy kicking long where they have a lot of big men. If they have the confidence to go at us it could get very ugly indeed, a bit like Mayo-Sligo last year.

Just to end on a note of positivity, if we throw the shackles off and just play with a bit of daring, it could be a night when some of our young players really come of age. Cill Dara Abu.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:24 pm

Looking back on last year under Ryans tenure, we were horrific defensively but there were also games where we were seriously good going forward (Laois replay, Longford and Cork stand out) I feel this is the way we should be going out. When Niall Kelly is aloud to roam around the half forward line, he can cause serious damage, he is a classy player who creates and also scores 4/5 points on average a game. We need to trust our forwards more as there is a lot of talent within many of them but as previously stated our downfall is ultimately our defence and especially our full back line. No disrespect to the lads but they are supremely average and nothing has really changed my opinion of them. Peter kelly looks a shadow of the 2010 all star and although Fitzpatrick and Hylo are capable players, I question could they contain the likes of O Shea and O Connor amongst others. We will win/lose this game by our capabilites of containing Mayo's attacking threat. It must be stated this is not the Mayo of the James Horan era or even last year and they can be beaten. Lets actually give it a go and not lose before the game has began by implementing a horrific defensive system.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:41 pm

To be honest I can't see much change in the team under O Neill that the team under Ryan. We have played in division 3 all year and played 3 division 4 teams and a division 3 team in the championship. Saturday will tell us wheather we have improved this year or not. Ryan got dogs abuse which was very wrong in my opinion but if we played Dublin or Kerry again in the morning would we any better ok we might not ship 7 goals but i don't think we have changed at all.
My worry is and maybe im wrong and im sure I'll be told very quickly if i am but O Neill came up with a defensive system that he believed was the way forward but got dogs abuse for supportets and pundits alike and then abandoned it. Should he not of tried to perfect it? We talk about the Donegal game as if they invented some master plan but they play the very same was as Dublin and kerry and they way most teams want to play. You work as hard as you can to take the ball off the opposition and then you sprint forward and score. It takes huge work rate to to it but i guess it up to the manager to build a team that is will to do that. Thats what separates the good managers from the rest. Is that too simplistic?
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Gaa1928
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:59 pm

jim wrote:
To be honest I  can't see much change in the team under O Neill that the team under Ryan.  We have played in division 3 all year and played 3 division 4 teams and a division 3 team in the championship.  Saturday will tell us wheather we have improved this year or not. Ryan got dogs abuse which was very wrong in my opinion but if we played Dublin or Kerry again in the morning would we any better ok we might not ship 7 goals but i don't think we have changed at all.
My worry is and maybe im wrong and im sure I'll be told very quickly if i am but O Neill  came up with a defensive system that he believed was the way forward but got dogs abuse for supportets and pundits alike and then abandoned it. Should he not of tried to perfect it?  We talk about the Donegal game as if they invented some master plan but they play the very same was as Dublin and kerry and they way most teams want to play. You work as hard as you can to take the ball off the opposition and then you sprint forward and score. It takes huge work rate to to it but i guess it up to the manager to build a team that is will to do that. Thats what separates the good managers from the rest. Is that too simplistic?

+1, to date we certainly have not improved, some would even say we have regressed.


Last edited by Gaa1928 on Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:50 pm

Tyrone seem to have perfected the counter attack style, but they didn't do it overnight as cian has tried to do. . He may get it right in time, but if he knew last October that this was his plan then why not use the obyrne cup and the league to get it started.
I fear what he'll do Saturday evening.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:14 pm

Seamas that is exactly my point.

Take the system v Offaly. If that's the setup he wants to use, fine - but as you say, trial it during the O'Byrne Cup and League and have it nailed come June.

Instead he has switched to it having used a different approach in the previous two games - and none of them used at all earlier in the year.

I just have a dread this could be a recipe for disaster, although like everyone else I am hoping we can put in a strong performance Saturday.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:14 pm

Missed the game last week and will miss this one too (silly of me to make plans around getting to the Leinster final).

Asked what way would I set up for this match I would go man to man. The hard part of that plan for me is where you put each of your men. Me I would have Flynn and Smith in the full forward line and have Kelly play just in front of them. I would then pick each man to mark their opponent on the best match ups. Put our best runners on their best runners. If that means putting Lyons in the half forward line than do it. Mayo want to run the ball. That is very hard to do if you are being hassled. Anyone can run with the ball into space if not being tackled but if the player is being marked tightly that tactic is harder to implement. Get the match up rights. Tell your back six not to leave their man for a second. That leaves your two midfielders and half forward line to get on the ball when Kildare have it and fed the full forward line and track their runners when Mayo have the ball. If you cut out the silly turnovers then Mayo should never have a free man on the pitch. If that happens then you give yourself a chance of winning.

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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:12 pm

Stick to the tactics of last Saturday, not because it was perfect but because 3 sessions and a 7 day turnaround isn't long enough to re-invent the wheel.

Brendan Harrison & Kevin Keane against our 2 man full-forward line, good. McLoughlin as sweeper, good (as long as he's marked on kick-outs). Hyland on O'Shea (who'll probably spend more time out the field) and Kelly (who can't be as bad again) on a less than fully fit O'Connor, take it. When they were under pressure against us 3 years ago, Evan Regan and Kevin McLoughlin bottled it. More of the same, please. There's no negative baggage here like there is with Dublin, Kerry or Tyrone so lets have a right cut at it. Biggest worry would be how the subs bench is used in the latter stages (in other words not Fionn Dowling at midfield).

2 years ago after the draw with Kerry, Tony McEntee wrote how Colm Boyle was the ideal sweeper for Mayo and yet now McLoughlin is there. Don't think their management team is any more sure of where they are going with their team than ours.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:14 pm

Man to man would be a mistake in my view. We know our weak point is our defending so we should have at least one man covering.
Secondly it's a problem for the last four years, stupid frees close to goal. How many times on Saturday did we give away a free because of a lazy arm or a silly push when the man was covered.
For one game can they not restrain themselves and think before they act. It would cut out at least 5 points a game that we need.

They need to play a near perfect game to win, but we have nothing to lose and we are already written off by most people including most of Mayo. Get the attitude right and the rest should follow. Put them under the pump and let's see what happens.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:35 pm

MOF will be our spare man again on Saturday I presume. I got the impression there was a lot more communication against Offaly. Donnellan was constantly instructing him which side the run behind was being made from and he was able to intercept plenty of ball. When we had two sweepers in the two Croke Park games there seemed to be confusion and they were almost getting in one another's way.

It's important we strike the right balance. We were way too defensive against Wexford and Westmeath. The style we played against Offaly suits us more although if we concede 2-14 again on Saturday we have little chance. Somewhere in between the two would be ideal.

Effective defensive tactics are as much about a mindset and culture as they are about the tactical set up. That ingrained culture simply isn't there among the Kildare players and hasn't been for a long while. It starts from number 15 back. Too often our forwards tackling is lazy and ineffective. We're letting teams up the field far too easily and then we're giving away stupid frees when we finally engage them inside our own half.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:37 pm

Price change.
Mayo now 1/10. Kildare 7/1. Draw 16/1.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:43 pm

Conceding 2-14 to offaly could be 5-15 to mayo.
Agreed kkk let's hope cian can find a balance.. most senior club teams in kildare play with one sweeper, so that shouldn't be alien to our fellas.
Interesting to hear that fionn dowling is going really well in training at midfield.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:16 pm

SeamusMurphy wrote:

Interesting to hear that fionn dowling is going really well in training at midfield.

He has certainly bulked up in the last few years - looked a big man out there when he came on Saturday.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:21 pm

You need a very experienced and clever player to play as a sweeper. The only one in Kilare who is capable of doing that is MOF who has done well there before. Forget about the defensive system, if we couldnt beat Westmeath with it we certailnly wont beat a top 6 team.
All that is required is for players to tackle properly. Hold the player up rather than just throwing out an arm and then try to dislodge the ball. It requires patience and skill but would eliminate a lot of scores against us. It's maddening to see Kildare defenders stop a player running through and then needlessly push him in the back.
Players like Kelly, Flynn, Feely and EOF play better outside a rigid system that allows them to use the undoubted skills they have to run up decent scores.
We will know early on what the likely outcome will be depending on how we set up.
I just hope we give it a lash and if we lose go down fighting unlike the tame end to the Westmeath game.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:26 pm

If they bring back McLoughlin like they have done in previous games, I would be in favour of us dropping back a forward, this will give a 7v5 situation at both ends of the field, I think they would fair better in this situation as they have better ball winners in their forward line, whereas ours rely on their movement to give them space so they don't have to win 50/50 - if it is 7v5 up there there will be little or no room to exploit up front.

In that case I would start Morgan as an out and out half back, with Doyle and Bolton either side of him - Byrne is unlucky to lose out but experience is pivotal in a game like this.

Match ups I would look for defensively would be

Hyland v Cillian O Connor
Kelly v O Shea
Lyons v Regan

Doyle v Diarmuid O Connor
Morgan v McLoughlin
Bolton v Higgins who seems to play wing forward despite wearing 4 on his back

Look it, it probably won't work but I do think the management and players have to approach this game with a positive mindset and attack the game rather than playing not to get hammered.

We have been cut open by Div 3 teams all year playing attacking football but we can't beat Westmeath playing defensively so we won't beat Mayo playing that way!
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:27 pm

Just to be clear I wrote my post the same time as murof, I didn't just rob his lines!!
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:36 pm

SeamusMurphy wrote:
Price change.
Mayo now 1/10. Kildare 7/1. Draw 16/1.

The bookies must be reading our posts. lol! lol! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:55 pm

I'd be inclined to agree with putting Kelly on O Shea. Kelly hasn't been great but he has it in him to come out guns blazing. Hyland would not be strong enough for O shea and would be more suited to roaming forward when possible, like Lyons. Main thing is we have a right cut at it. That league game in '14 is similar to where we are at now - we shipped a lot of scores but our flare and firepower up front made up for this. We do not have Brophy now obviously but there is enough skill in Kelly, feely, Flats etc to do sufficient damage. We wont have mastered any system by saturday but at least have a go and allow lads to step up and win their individual battles. We are written off by everybody as one Mayo chap said to me yesterday, according to him, "Kildare are the worst team left in the championship". Hopefully this view is shared among the mayo players and we prove them wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:52 am

On current form I don't think Kelly will be able for O'Shea. I would be more inclined to put Fitzpatrick back on him. Wouldn't drop Byrne as I felt he did well last week.

Agree that Hyland and Lyons like to roam but for me thats worrying. Too many times against Offaly they came out and left Kelly alone at the back. Then once Offaly got possession and ran towards goal their attackers were left one on one with Donnellan. If this happens against Mayo with the quality of forwards they have we're done. Someone needs to sit back in front of our goals. If Mayo can draw all of our backs out like that it'll suit them perfectly and we'll probably ship at least 2 or 3 goals.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:55 am

I've seen Keith cribben play the sweeper role a few times for jtb and he did it well, he has a decent engine and a burst of speed.. although bound to be rusty after the long layoff.. he'd be an option if Morgan isn't getting 70 mins.
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:57 am

Gaa1928 wrote:
SeamusMurphy wrote:
Price change.
Mayo now 1/10. Kildare 7/1. Draw 16/1.

The bookies must be reading our posts. lol! lol! lol!

Shur isn't paddy power a regular reader. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Mayo V Kildare   Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:48 am

Brilliant article from Darragh O Se and if he thinks Roscommon and Galway were afraid he should have seen us against Westmeath.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/darragh-%C3%B3-s%C3%A9-fear-doing-football-more-harm-than-defensive-systems-ever-will-1.2719455

I'd love to see us be a bit different. I'm not saying we have to go man for man and leave acres of space in our own half - by all means get extra bodies back when we don't have it.

But I do mean I'd love to see us go for the throat when we have the ball. For the first time in my life, we have a heap of forwards coming in the next few years who are capable of it.
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