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 Kildare v Derry

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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:15 am

I didn't know that about umpires. Is that true?

Doesn't change the fact the referee made a clear decision it was a free out. If that was for a foul that he saw how can he allow umpires over-rule him. If it was square ball and he was unsure he shouldn't have signalled a free out until he'd consulted first.

All that aside I've said I don't think Kildare deserved to win and that we regressed to old ways today particularly defensively. The re-jigging of the team didn't help but players playing should have been able to do the job. Weren't at the races at all.

I know what you mean about playing dirty but Derry won without playing dirty and besides with that ref outlawing any physical contact we'd have ended up with 10 players if we played that way. We need to be tougher and cuter though, as we were v Cork.
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Taibi
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:29 am

kildaregaa365 wrote:
I didn't know that about umpires. Is that true?

Doesn't change the fact the referee made a clear decision it was a free out. If that was for a foul that he saw how can he allow umpires over-rule him. If it was square ball and he was unsure he shouldn't have signalled a free out until he'd consulted first.

All that aside I've said I don't think Kildare deserved to win and that we regressed to old ways today particularly defensively. The re-jigging of the team didn't help but players playing should have been able to do the job. Weren't at the races at all.  

I know what you mean about playing dirty but Derry won without playing dirty and besides with that ref outlawing any physical contact we'd have ended up with 10 players if we played that way. We need to be tougher and cuter though, as we were v Cork.

Yes, it is true. They attend a course. It's probably just a box ticking exercise but to suggest referees pick a few mates from the local to go umpire an inter-county game is just ridiculous.

Like I said before, he wasn't over-ruled, he can't be. He obviously took the umpires' advice and he made his decision based on that. Tyrone men are as popular in Derry as Laois men are in Kildare so to suggest he was doing them a favor is also ridiculous. However, I do think referees need to be from neutral provinces for league and championship games.

On your last point, Derry didn't need to play dirty because they weren't two points up deep into injury time, a black card for one or two Kildare players would've wound down the clock and kept Derry from getting near our goal. There's club teams who are experts at this, I see it all the time. Why can't our county team do it? It's not a complicated tactic.
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SeamusMurphy
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:38 am

Umpires probably do a course, but there not all referees, and indeed most will be from the same club as the referee.. kinsella Umpires as an example.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:36 pm

Taibi there's so many obvious flaws in your defence of the referee but your mind is clearly made up that this was all about our failings. I'd say 95% so we're not far off agreeing. Leave it there so. I'd staunchly disagree with you that them having a Tyrone ref is the same as us having a Laois one. Ulster sticks together. You see it in how seriously they take the Railway Cup over the years compared to other competitions. And I know the people up there. It's not the same.

As regards Derry not playing dirty my point was about the whole game not just injury time. When Kildare had a run on them they didn't resort to dirt. I agree we were too nice though and in general resorted to loose marking. Being pushed off the ball too easily and lazy tackling.

Lots to work on to put this behind us.
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Ohtoohtobe
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:50 pm

If anything I'd say the Tyrone-Derry rivalry is way fiercer than Kildare-Laois. Anyone accusing the officials of cheating needs to take a look at themselves. Seen some really embarrassing stuff on social media.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:48 pm

Long time lurker first time poster. Wasn't at the game so can't overly comment on it other than to say it was a young side out today and hopefully we can learn from the experience .

Derry is a hard place to go, even when they are going poorly they were always capable of big performances up there . Remeber several away trips there coming home with the tail between the legs.

On the referee situation it's not ideal to have a referee from a neighbouring county and actually only 10-15 mile away from Derry border. Not saying there is anything untoward going on but at the same time in doing so the GAA are leaving them wide open for a scenario such as this . Comparing our rivalry with Laois is not like for like. Within Ulster they all hate each other but they stick together against us "free staters".

Fermanagh or Derry would be up in arms if the same happened in Newbridge with Deegan officiating . Even if it was the right decision . It's a natural reaction to a cruel way to lose a game Ohto.

The thing for Kildare to learn from this is to learn to close or games from this situation . And when teams get a run on you try to limit the damage. Listening on the radio at start of the second half Derry we're back level with us within 5 minutes

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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:07 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
If anything I'd say the Tyrone-Derry rivalry is way fiercer than Kildare-Laois. Anyone accusing the officials of cheating needs to take a look at themselves. Seen some really embarrassing stuff on social media.

Thanks for the moral guidance O2B. Ohtoohaveyourwisdom.

I'll stand by what I said about a Tyrone ref for a Derry match. Their intense rivalry when playing each other doesn't come into it when faced with southern opposition. I can accept that "cheating" can not be proven and perhaps that's not my finest hour but at some point you feel the need to hit out at all of these refereeing controversies that only seem to go one way. Can you seriously imagine a ref giving a critical free to Dublin and after the event consulting his umpires.? And changing the decision? Wouldn't happen. If he gave us the free for a foul on Donnellan he can't be over ruled as he's the one in charge and that's what he saw. If it was a square ball he gave it for normally you'd consult first as one of the primary jobs of an umpire is to watch for square balls. I can't imagine he made a square ball decision off his own bat to award the free. Must have seen a foul on the keeper. At the very least it was shocking refereeing to clearly award a free if there was any doubt or need for consultation.

Hope the air isn't too thin up there on the moral high ground by the way.
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tomoneillandhissisteranne
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:06 pm

"This is bullshit. Umpires are also assistant referees and they are trained at county level. The referee has the final say in all decisions, so he wasn't over-ruled."

My point was that the goal had been disallowed and a free out signalled. The consultation came after the decision so, technically he was being over ruled


Last edited by tomoneillandhissisteranne on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:10 pm

abl wrote:
Until we stop always blaming the officials and correct our own failings we will always come up short.As has been said already WE had possession with a free deep into injury time and decide to kick it away.All the lazy fouling kept Derry in the game today.What happens next,do we fall away like we did after we gave the ball to Tyrone for them to beat us in Newbridge under J Ryan and let the whole season fall apart or do we react the way we did against Cork after maurice dickhead deegan got his way to have D Flynns goal disallowed.Im going for us kicking the bollox out of Fermanagh and no more unlucky looser shite.Time to get dirty

You seem to want it both ways here bounce
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:17 pm

My guess would be that the ref blew for a square ball thinking the Derry player was in the square before the ball was kicked. Once he consulted his umpires he was made aware that the player did not enter the square until after the ball was kicked so the goal was perfectly okay. I would be more concerned that Donnellan has been caught out 2 games in a row for soft goals.


Last edited by pkmie on Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:34 pm

In which case, pkmie, he should not have blown the whistle for a free out but consulted the umpires after the goal was scored and before the decision was made ....but it's water under the bridge at this stage. And I still believe the level of refereeing is poor - Donegal's "free" for the equalising point against Dublin yesterday is another case in point...one of a myriad (having said that I'm no fan of Dublin!!!)
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:38 pm

Good refereeing in my view. Basically he made a mistake pointing for a free out and corrected his decision and allowed a perfectly good goal to stand. Takes a strong referee to see he is wrong and change his decision. If it was the other way around we would be raving at how brave the referee was to change his mind and give the correct decision.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:52 pm

SeamusMurphy wrote:
Derry is always a tough place to get anything, even when their struggling.. losing the two forwards beforehand didn't help, and although we did score 1-17 we lack forwards on the bench, with respect to leper and mcnally neither are gonna get a lot of scores.
Taibi is right, we have to get that ruthless edge to close out these games.
Cian has been saying the smaller panel is working well, that's all fine until we get a few injuries.
Anyway let's move on and let that one go.

No but McNally isn't there to get scores. Leper in his pomp when he was playing up front was of course. And will bigger panels improve the quality of forwards? Will it not just mean more lads not getting any games? If injuries happen, you call guys up.

Also, bigger panels, mean greater expense. And when Cian talks about a smaller panel, he is saying in relation to last year, when every able-bodied male got a game for Kildare in the League. What is the panel, around 30-ish? What do you think it should be 40? Then you have a lot of guys getting no games and people, rightly, giving out about that. Keep doing the business with the club and if there are injuries, you get the call.

Agree completely on the ruthlessness - was a problem with the best team under Geezer even - this is a new young group and you've got to learn it.

Anyway, I have given out a lot about the shite Kildare managers get but no more... the "fucking animals" down in Kerry are going ape at Eamonn Fitzmaurice. They've gone too long without winning an All-Ireland, because it's their birthright. Dopes.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:57 pm

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
If anything I'd say the Tyrone-Derry rivalry is way fiercer than Kildare-Laois. Anyone accusing the officials of cheating needs to take a look at themselves. Seen some really embarrassing stuff on social media.

Some call to say a referee is a cheat, particularly if he came up with the right decision in the end. And that seems to be the consensus, yeah? Or no?
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:10 pm

I wasn't at the match so I didn't the incident at the end but it sounds like we would have been lucky if the goal was disallowed. Obviously very frustrating for the ref to give the free and then change his mind. I wonder though should Mark Donnellan be trying to punch the ball away rather than trying to catch it? The goal against Cork seemed very similar and I remember a goal conceded in a similar fashion against Down a couple of years ago.

Another problem that was evident against Dublin in the O'Byrne Cup was the we allowed them to shoot unchallenged from the 45 despite having nearly everybody back. Seemed to be a problem yesterday as well with nobody pushing out on James Kielt.

Obviously we have to be better defensively but I think with the way the team is set up that high scoring games like yesterday will be the norm. Cian O'Neill looked at it last year and decided (as Kieran McGeeney and Jason Ryan did as well) that we're better playing open football than trying to be defensive. We'll probably come a cropper against the better teams but some of our attacking play (3-17 against Meath, 1-10 in 23 minutes yesterday) has been excellent.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:10 pm

Wasn't at the game, was listening on radio, Jesus what a sickening way to lose... Kildare two points up in injury time, what could possibly go wrong?!

Just wondering what happened with Feely's free that led to goal? Apparently he was distraught afterwards... Seemed like he was trying to play it to Shea Ryan, but Ryan was caught unaware and it was intercepted or something?!

Hoping we can put this behind us with a win next weekend. Although expecting a tough game against Fermanagh who are a really well-drilled and resilient side under Pete McGrath.
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Ohtoohtobe
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:09 pm

I wasn't actually talking about anyone in particular kg365, just saying I saw a load of stuff on FB and Twitter that was embarrassing. Judging from your response you're not comfortable with whatever you posted yourself.
I dunno what you said but I saw several posts more or less accusing a ref of rigging a result because a marginal square ball call went against us. That is well beyond unfair and me pointing that out is not some lofty attempt to take the moral high ground, it's common sense.

On a wider point I'm sick of the wailing as if there's some grand conspiracy against Kildare football. The only one that still rankles with me is O'Connor 2011, when I thought we were slightly the better team and a bit unlucky. The others occurred in games where we were second best. I probably whinged at the time but a few years pass, you look at it objectively, you realise we were second best.

And we always conveniently 'forget' that we were haunted to make an All-Ireland final in 98 on the back of a very debatable square ball call.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:32 pm

Wasn't at the game but fair play to all who travelled. Thats 2 games in a row that Donnellan has not been good under a high ball. There is no doublt he is a fine shot stopper but he needs to develop a nasty streak when coming for a high ball and take man and ball out of it. Otherwise players will quickly realise that it is a worthwhile tactic to challenge him.
The other concern is the our inability to stop the opposition getting a run on us and rattling up a lot of scores. As long as I am supporting Kildare it has happened. Leinster final in 93, 2nd replay against Meath in 97, AI final in 98. We got lucky in 00 against Dublin when half time saved us after we conceded 6 points in a row.
It seems to be in our DNA to lie down before fighting back when it is to late. We will win nothing until we can eradicate this habit as we have the abilty to run up decent scores at the moment but those periods in games are killing us.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:40 pm

Just because you are second best it doesn't mean that when bad decisions go against you it's ok. Most of the successful teams in sports have been second best many times but get a decision that goes their way. You'll never hear them complain.

It's a uniquely GAA or maybe Kildare outlook that sees us think we weren't playing well so we don't deserve a correct decision or that we can't highlight it or just have a moan.

When was the last time Dublin had a match losing decision go against them, they don't it's the other way round and when it happens all hell will break loose to put the next ref under pressure. Sure even the most successful County Kerry are still apaleptic about the 2011 final.

We definitely have had far more wrong major calls in big matches over the years than go for us. But sure it all evens it self out.

Back to the game, it's been mentioned but Donnellan has a problem under high balls. No doubt about it. It's caused a number of goals over the last few years. He seems to lose the flight and gets under it quite regularly.
Lads need to regoup and not feel sorry for themselves. We have seen the downwards spiral this team can get into after a late loss.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:45 pm

Rex you think that because you see only the ones that go against us and forget the ones that go with us, Lynch taking 12-14 steps to rob Wicklow, Crowley and Geraghty and Muldoon square ball calls, Leper taking a heap of steps for the Down goal, I could go on.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:40 pm

Just seen the footage of the goal for the first time and it was clearly legit. Pity the ref made such a pig's ear of his decision making process but we lost fair and square this time. Regarding Donnellan under the high ball it is a peculiarity of Gaelic football goalkeepers that they don't want to punch in such circumstances. I blame it on the "possession at all cost" mentality. Surely if you're in the third minute of injury time and a high ball rains down on you under the cross bar with a Derry man in front of you the last thing you want to do is try to catch and then clear. Punch it anywhere ! Even over the bar would have been fine as we were two up. If you punch to the sides the likelihood is we'll have more defenders than they'll have forwards in the vicinity. I think it's nit-picking somewhat though to pick on Donnellan who has made some fabulous saves through this campaign and only conceded 2 goals in 7 games (not three games in a row as someone mentioned). He seems by some distance the best we have at the moment and clearly needs to work on those high balls and be more pragmatic.

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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:56 pm

Also saw clip. Hyland standing 4-5 yards in front off full back my biggest concern.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:58 pm

Where can you see the clip?
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:17 am

It's on Colm Parkinson's Twitter timeline.

Awful defending from Kildare, to leave a man one on one in the square given the stage of the game is criminal.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Derry   Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:27 am

Just watched it, should have been dealt with, great goal from McGuckin's point of view, played the ball not the man so I'd say it was an excellent call.
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