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 Kildare v Kerry

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Ohtoohtobe
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:50 pm

Maybe it’s a sign of progress that in two and a half years we’ve gone from Division 3 to people being angry about losing by five points away to Kerry?
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TommyKeegan
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:00 pm

Not for me OTB. And CON saying above our level is bullshit. This group has been good enough to in large part to play pro sports, win at underage, reach Division One. I look at games against Tyrone, Monaghan and maybe Donegal as winnable if we improved as a team from last year through coaching/learning ability and if we did basics you'd expect of a lower Division team from passes to shot selection to keeper catching high ball to having a free taker to wearing a gum shield. We were with Galway last year so why excuse this fall off/lack of progression. This group has/had top six potential, only in Kildare would we excuse them not winning a game in nearly a year given that.
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Ohtoohtobe
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:42 pm

There's winning at underage and really winning at underage though. I saw some poster here saying we have the same talent as Galway; they won two U21 All-Irelands, whereas a fair portion of our team is based on an under 21 team that lost to them. We have also been compared to the Laois underage boom; again, they were winning underage All-Irelands, something we have not come close to.

That's not to say we're not getting better at underage, we clearly are, and we have some really good young talent, but this idea that there's an embarrassment of riches doesn't stack up compared to what the Dubs, Mayo and Kerry have coming through.

I'm disappointed in this league campaign, frustrated that we couldn't win a couple of the games we were in with a right shout of winning, but the reality is that being a kick off the best three Ulster teams and five to nine points off the best three teams in the country is not a huge shock. It's an accurate reflection of where we're at, which is somewhere around the same level as Cavan and Roscommon; too good for division two, not quite good enough for division one. Being somewhere between the eighth to tenth best team in the country is not a disaster, even if we'd all hope to push on to the top six or seven.

And I'll get slaughtered for saying something positive about this group, but I think they've stuck at it where previous Kildare teams would have completely crumbled; we conceded something like 0-10 to 0-1 at one stage in the first half on Saturday night, and our best midfielder went off injured, but we didn't give up. Cold comfort, perhaps, but an improvement on several games in the Jason Ryan era.
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Cilldara_2000
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:00 pm

This thing about a lot of the group having been good enough for professional sports. They weren't really. One of them played at ~30 games at the fourth tier of professional association football in England. Of the rest, how many appearances at first team level in their professional sport did they make? IIRC somewhere around 0.

And as for underage success. God help us. Since de team about 25 Leinster Championships at senior, junior, minor and U21, and not one All Ireland. That's not exactly great underage success. And one need only look at our neighbours to see what underage success really means. They one two minor All Irelands but it took the man himself just to get one senior provincial championship.

I'm not going to slaughter anyone. I'm not even going to criticise. It seems to me that we have a bunch of players who have found their level: division 2 and outside the top 8. It is what it is (or we are we are  Laughing ). No manager can make a silk purse from a pig's ear.
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jim
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:50 pm

I believe our off field problems are as big as our onfield problems.
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Flamingo
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:40 pm

I think O2B is right in the sense that we are looking at ourselves based on a level we are not really at. We didn't really think we would come up so well last year, so I was expecting a bad league.
The issue is that when we take on Armagh in the championship that we can't do it. They are a team who were froma lower division and saw us coming a mile off. I would say overall we are a better team than them and when we were expecting to win a game we messed it up.
The worry always is the basic mistakes need to be ironed out and the players let the basics fail them when under pressure. That is a constant worry.
Dan Flynn is a beast but teams know he is the man to stop. The fact that other teams are double marking him yet other players in the forward line don't take advantage of this is a worry too.
I'd lay that at CON's door. If Flynn is being marked then let him run decoys and make space.

Look we are a decent team but we are at the same level of Cavan, Roscommon and so on. That is a worry too as our resources are so much more than those sparsely populated counties.

On the field and the sideline we just need another growth spurt. In fairness as pointed we shot up from losing a Div 3 final to topping Div 2. But that Armagh defeat really is the issue and Last 8 has to be the goal.
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JohnnyC
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:15 am

Ohtoohtobe wrote:
The reality is that being a kick off the best three Ulster teams and five to nine points off the best three teams in the country is not a huge shock.
If you look at just the final results, you could probably say that we are doing as well as expected. Having been to most of the games though, I'd have the following questions:

Were we as well prepared as possible for the league? Given that the league started earlier, was more condensed etc. and that we were back in division 1 for the first time in years, I expected us to hit the ground running this year. That's why it was disappointing to see our efforts in the O'Byrne cup where we looked out of shape, out of form and disinterested. Maybe we will find our mojo later in the year and reach the super 8s but it's hard to see that happening as our confidence is so low.

Is the coaching/tactics getting the best out of the players? When you see a good team like Dublin or Corofin play, everyone seems to be on the same wavelength, the players seem to have lots of options and usually take the right one. We seem to be the opposite, no clear pattern of play, players making it up as they go along and taking wrong options. As for the tackling, I agree it's our biggest problem (and has been since Cork ran through us in 2012) but it's Cian's 3rd year in charge so I wouldn't be confident he will be able to significantly improve us in this area.

Are the players playing well enough? While I agree our underage record isn't as good as people make out (1 Leinster under-21 since 2008) I think we've all seen players like Kevin Feely, Niall Kelly, Paddy Brophy and Paul Cribbin play a lot better than they have this year. Hard to know the reason for this, but we badly need these players back in form. The form of players like Daniel Flynn, Peter Kelly and Kevin Flynn has been encouraging but we need ten or eleven players playing well, not 3 or 4.
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Rex
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:09 am

I'd have to agree with JC here. Having watched most of our games this year it is obvious what needs improving. As I said in a earlier post a decent tackling coach would improve us 50% without any other changes. If you reduce the stupid mistakes that lead to unnecessary turnovers you could add another 15%. The rest is a little harder to improve because I'm not sure they are coachable.  Decision making is massive issue for this team. Stupid passes, poor shot selection, not sensing danger, and the perrineal problem of bringing the ball into contact.

Basically what I'm saying is a lot of our problems are self inflicted. There is massive room for improvement. The problem is I don't see any of them getting solved.
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jim
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:25 am

Here's a question " are the players coachable" ? I thought O'Neill was never the fit as manager but that's a different story. He's CV tell us he's a top class coach maybe these players are not coachable.
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Flamingo
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:26 am

I think it's fair to say overall the frustration as Rex says is that they can play, but they go from the sublime to the ridiculous. The fact that in Div 1 the ridiculous was a bit too common when under pressure.

Clarke was saying last night on telly how we are too easy to play against and that edge is something that is often lacking and is nothing new.
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murof
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:01 am

Bringing the ball into contact and losing it is not just the fault of the player but also his team mates for not running in support. You see how important it is in rugby and it's getting increasingly so in gaa also.
Northern teams are great at enticing runners into gaps and closing in to swallow them up.
Happened a lot against Tyrone this year. Top teams like Dublin always have support. Watch their 2nd goal against us when 2 Kildare players tackled the man in possession and he still got the ball away to McCarthy to score.
Have the current Kildare players the willingness to play this type of football? It would make them a far better team if they could.
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Ogie
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:25 am

I'd be in O2's camp here. I don't understand the professional sportsmen comment, don't understand why they're good enough to be top four over not just Tyrone or Galway but Cavan, Donegal or Roscommon based on underage achievement, I don't understand how most of the performances have not been better than say either of the two wins over Meath last year or the defeat of Laois. But I get that might be me.

I also get that it's easier to be impassionate when it's not your county. But like people called Moorefield cowards and losers for losing by a a few points, in an All-Ireland semi-final, to the team that walked the All-Ireland. The standard of opposition does merit taking into account.

I suppose though, when you are on a run of losing games, if you don't trust what's going on and understand what's happening, and have faith in yourself and the set-up, it can affect confidence. We will know that when they are back playing teams from the next tier or below, where they would be more comfortable.

Don't know why I posted that. I promised myself I wouldn't. I know what's coming.

On another note, I sent a PM on this yesterday and coming back, I can't find the PM button on any menu anywhere. Used to be at the top of the page, plainly visible?
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kildaregaa365
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:32 am

“Messages” option on the menu at the top Ogie.

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SeamusMurphy
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:22 am

Bookies have us at 10th in the AI betting.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:22 am

My assessment...

This team has a HUGE problem coping with pressure, it's actually their defining fault.

Go back to the start of last year. During that time they have blown away some mediocre opposition - and fair play to them, they played some great football.

Each time it turned into a battle though, they have been found severely wanting.

Start with the Armagh game and you'll see a trend emerge where, when they need to keep their composure, they get panicky and start making bad decisions.

It happened again this year against Monaghan, Tyrone, Donegal. Even against Dublin and Mayo, they got themselves into decent positions, but as soon as the opposition came back at them hard, they didn't just fold - they collapsed. I actually felt Mayo might be vulnerable - a suspicion confirmed by a truly abysmal display yesterday, which puts our failure to compete with them into even starker perspective.

Until they can develop the mental and physical toughness you need to see out close games, they're not going to be a top team. Unfortunately, those qualities are usually innate and it's hard to see who could realistically coach it into them. Taking that assessment to its logical conclusion, this league campaign is effectively the end of this project.

That might seem severe, but I suspect it's the truth. Terminal mediocrity awaits - although that's the default setting of most Kildare teams over the years, so nothing new there I'm afraid.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:40 am

What's the one out and out battle this team has won since the start of 2017? I would say in the league against Clare - who are hardly a top side.

Go through the rest of the close games - Derry, Galway (twice), Armagh, Monaghan, Tyrone, Donegal... all losses.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:12 am

Some one said earlier that the team has nearly been the same all league it has been baring injuries to a great extent one question can any one say what role Conway is supposed to play he seems to be neither a forward or a back I personally think he should be wearing the 6 shirt with Doyle in 5 and bring in a free taker in forward line
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:07 am

Here's to being proved wrong... Super 8s would be a good start but O'Neill has some job on his hands raising morale.

Be interesting to see if either of the underage sides make an impact this summer.
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micky murphy
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:21 pm

To me think the biggest problem I have is that although we were close in a few games we are probably there or there about with the level of skills and fitness with the mid div 1 teams, we just have got relegated with a whimper no real fight and we just rolled over showing no killer instinct or real passion we shadow rather than tackle.......
I don't mind not winning games (not just Kildare but sport in general) when you leave everything behind you and show some passion and fight.......... maybe as some people have mentioned we have a backbone of ex professional athletes who didn't have the mental strength to see it through and gave up and underage failures who are being kept in the 'Hawkfield Bubble' with a manager at the moment who just loves to talk and talk and I have heard more buzz words from than any other GAA manager.....
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:25 pm

kildaregaa365 wrote:
“Messages” option on the menu at the top Ogie.


It's gone K365! At least I know I haven't completely lost my mind and that's where it used to be... I'd only sent a message the previous day!

Thanks anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:29 pm

SeamusMurphy wrote:
Bookies have us at 10th in the AI betting.

That would be about right I'd say Seamus, anywhere between 8-13 I'd have thought, with top eight, Cavan, Roscommon, Tipperary, Clare and Cork in and around the same zone.
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micky murphy
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:56 pm

Just a question, we have played a full rounds of league games, can anyone give me the name of player/players that you would describe that have 'dug deep and played above their abilities and gave 110%' during the league?
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Ohtoohtobe
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:03 pm

Peter Kelly and Daniel Flynn were best from the four games I saw Micky
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shoutitout
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:26 pm

Any truth that some lads went for drinks after the match on Saturday night that were not sanctioned by CON???
Will we now see a big change to the team sheet for Sunday?
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Gaa1928
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PostSubject: Re: Kildare v Kerry   Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:51 pm

shoutitout wrote:
Any truth that some lads went for drinks after the match on Saturday night that were not sanctioned by CON???
Will we now see a big change to the team sheet for Sunday?

As it a 'dead rubber ' for both teams I would expect to see many changes, and free admission because I'm not sure how many are going to pay in to see it + I don't expect to see too many travelling up from Galway with the final the following week in Croke Park.

That said the experience gained from playing in Div 1 over the last few months will put us in a much better place come the Leinster championship.
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